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The Walter White of Wichita (2016)

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Re: The Walter White of Wichita (2016)

#11

Post by time-domain0 »

austincheney wrote: post #9
stmfreak wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With legalization, the drugs would be cleaner and dosing more predictable. We could then focus on helping addicts recover instead of worrying about the legal trouble and violence they might bring to our homes if we try to help them.

So far legalization has not proven to solve the problems of demand or addiction. In the past several years legally available drugs have been the most abused and resulted in significant problems. I am not claiming this as a justification for increased enforcement either. If you aren't solving for demand you either aren't taking the problem seriously or you have anterior motives to ending drug abuse.

You're mistaken. Prohibition has always failed. 18th/21st amendments and Portugal decriminalization. It's not to say hard drugs are great, but criminalizing them creates more violence and crime in order to access them.

Legalization solves several bigger problems:

- MIC/PIC over-criminalization for profit

- barriers to treatment

- higher prices plus criminal enterprises lead to violent crime, i.e., Mexico right now, and greater property crime of users to support habits

Solving economic, social issues is beyond the scope of drug policy but giving people hope, purpose, mission and security reduces usage. Having a functional community, society are preconditions to deterring substance abuse... whereas failed states and under/unemployment promote it.

No amount of self-righteous crusaders will change human behavior, but they can certainly make it worse with naïve policies.

Re: The Walter White of Wichita (2016)

#12

Post by austincheney »

time-domain0 wrote: post #11
austincheney wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So far legalization has not proven to solve the problems of demand or addiction. In the past several years legally available drugs have been the most abused and resulted in significant problems. I am not claiming this as a justification for increased enforcement either. If you aren't solving for demand you either aren't taking the problem seriously or you have anterior motives to ending drug abuse.

You're mistaken. Prohibition has always failed. 18th/21st amendments and Portugal decriminalization. It's not to say hard drugs are great, but criminalizing them creates more violence and crime in order to access them. Legalization solves several bigger problems: - MIC/PIC over-criminalization for profit - barriers to treatment - higher prices plus criminal enterprises lead to violent crime, i.e., Mexico right now, a…

I am not advocating for prohibition. I am just saying that legalization hasn't demonstrated a solution.

Re: The Walter White of Wichita (2016)

#13

Post by UncleEntity »

austincheney wrote: post #9
stmfreak wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With legalization, the drugs would be cleaner and dosing more predictable. We could then focus on helping addicts recover instead of worrying about the legal trouble and violence they might bring to our homes if we try to help them.

So far legalization has not proven to solve the problems of demand or addiction. In the past several years legally available drugs have been the most abused and resulted in significant problems. I am not claiming this as a justification for increased enforcement either. If you aren't solving for demand you either aren't taking the problem seriously or you have anterior motives to ending drug abuse.

> So far legalization has not proven to solve the problems of demand or addiction.

Those are really biological issues.

If they were to make tobacco illegal tomorrow that also wouldn't solve for demand or addiction but would merely make it vastly more inconvenient for people to get their nicotine fix. But, as they've doing for (at least) the last 40+ years, if they try to get people to either not start or stop on their own (i.e. without jail time) then the problem just kind of fixes itself.

Two choices really and one leads to having the largest prison population on the planet with no real end in sight to the "drug epidemic".

Re: The Walter White of Wichita (2016)

#14

Post by quetzthecoatl »

austincheney wrote: post #12
time-domain0 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're mistaken. Prohibition has always failed. 18th/21st amendments and Portugal decriminalization. It's not to say hard drugs are great, but criminalizing them creates more violence and crime in order to access them. Legalization solves several bigger problems: - MIC/PIC over-criminalization for profit - barriers to treatment - higher prices plus criminal enterprises lead to violent crime, i.e., Mexico right now, a…

I am not advocating for prohibition. I am just saying that legalization hasn't demonstrated a solution.

It worked for Portugal - https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/dec/05/portugals-radic...

Re: The Walter White of Wichita (2016)

#15

Post by Nursie »

austincheney wrote: post #9
stmfreak wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With legalization, the drugs would be cleaner and dosing more predictable. We could then focus on helping addicts recover instead of worrying about the legal trouble and violence they might bring to our homes if we try to help them.

So far legalization has not proven to solve the problems of demand or addiction. In the past several years legally available drugs have been the most abused and resulted in significant problems. I am not claiming this as a justification for increased enforcement either. If you aren't solving for demand you either aren't taking the problem seriously or you have anterior motives to ending drug abuse.

> So far legalization has not proven to solve the problems of demand or addiction.

It solves the problem of peoples lives being (further) ruined by punitive policy. It opens up the possibility of seeking help without risking criminal conviction.

Re: The Walter White of Wichita (2016)

#16

Post by circlefavshape »

UncleEntity wrote: post #13
austincheney wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So far legalization has not proven to solve the problems of demand or addiction. In the past several years legally available drugs have been the most abused and resulted in significant problems. I am not claiming this as a justification for increased enforcement either. If you aren't solving for demand you either aren't taking the problem seriously or you have anterior motives to ending drug abuse.

> So far legalization has not proven to solve the problems of demand or addiction. Those are really biological issues. If they were to make tobacco illegal tomorrow that also wouldn't solve for demand or addiction but would merely make it vastly more inconvenient for people to get their nicotine fix. But, as they've doing for (at least) the last 40+ years, if they try to get people to either not start or stop on thei…

+1

Some substances are psychoactive, and can be pleasurable to take. That's at the root of the demand, and can't ever really be "solved"

Re: The Walter White of Wichita (2016)

#17

Post by lotsofpulp »

abtinf wrote: post #7
pietroglyph wrote: post #2

> Then came the 1970s and the drug war. “Oh my goodness, now I have a business,” he thought. This guy is pretty interesting (and it's disappointing that he didn't do something more constructive with his skills), but this quote stood out the most to me. If you start limiting supply but not curtailing demand (e.g. a drug war), it makes it a lot more profitable to sell. And all that money makes it a lot easier for the s…

It is that simple. Here is a Nobel Prize winning economist agreeing with you: “See, if you look at the drug war from a purely economic point of view, the role of the government is to protect the drug cartel. That's literally true.” ― Milton Friedman

And the police/DEA/ATF/DHS "security" apparatus.

Re: The Walter White of Wichita (2016)

#18

Post by austincheney »

quetzthecoatl wrote: post #14
austincheney wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not advocating for prohibition. I am just saying that legalization hasn't demonstrated a solution.

It worked for Portugal - https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/dec/05/portugals-radic...

Yes, it did work for Portugal. Portugal does not have the pharmaceutical industry that the US does.

Due to criminalization of certain drugs and the extreme enforcement thereof demand for legally available drugs has never been higher in the US. The pharmaceutical industry is more than happy to fill that gap and meet the economic demand. By ignoring the data and eliminating access to controlled substances demand has not diminished but instead shifted to alternate products.

Criminalization/legalization ignores all the data and research on this problem.

Re: The Walter White of Wichita (2016)

#19

Post by austincheney »

Nursie wrote: post #15
austincheney wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So far legalization has not proven to solve the problems of demand or addiction. In the past several years legally available drugs have been the most abused and resulted in significant problems. I am not claiming this as a justification for increased enforcement either. If you aren't solving for demand you either aren't taking the problem seriously or you have anterior motives to ending drug abuse.

> So far legalization has not proven to solve the problems of demand or addiction. It solves the problem of peoples lives being (further) ruined by punitive policy. It opens up the possibility of seeking help without risking criminal conviction.

I was pretty clear that I am not advocating for criminalization.

Re: The Walter White of Wichita (2016)

#20

Post by austincheney »

circlefavshape wrote: post #16
UncleEntity wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So far legalization has not proven to solve the problems of demand or addiction. Those are really biological issues. If they were to make tobacco illegal tomorrow that also wouldn't solve for demand or addiction but would merely make it vastly more inconvenient for people to get their nicotine fix. But, as they've doing for (at least) the last 40+ years, if they try to get people to either not start or stop on thei…

+1 Some substances are psychoactive, and can be pleasurable to take. That's at the root of the demand, and can't ever really be "solved"

Education and behavior are always solvable problems. Denial of such opens people to manipulation and opportunity loss.
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