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Switzerland to test ‘hyperloop’ train technologies

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Re: Switzerland to test ‘hyperloop’ train technologies

#11

Post by ceejayoz »

Animats wrote: post #9

The Dubai-Abu Dhabi hyperloop had a lot more potential.[1] Flat undeveloped desert along most of the route, the best case for a tube train. But the UAE government is backing off on support. Nobody really wants to build Musk's hovercraft-like system. They're all maglev in vacuum systems. Meanwhile, Japan's JR continues to tunnel for the Tokyo-Nagoya maglev. They have 42km of working track and rolling stock. It's expen…

Swiss citizens travel more kilometers by rail per capita than any other country in the world. If you're going to implement a new form of public transit, they're a pretty good place to look.

Re: Switzerland to test ‘hyperloop’ train technologies

#12

Post by aidenn0 »

Animats wrote: post #9

The Dubai-Abu Dhabi hyperloop had a lot more potential.[1] Flat undeveloped desert along most of the route, the best case for a tube train. But the UAE government is backing off on support. Nobody really wants to build Musk's hovercraft-like system. They're all maglev in vacuum systems. Meanwhile, Japan's JR continues to tunnel for the Tokyo-Nagoya maglev. They have 42km of working track and rolling stock. It's expen…

You don't happen to know why nobody wants the air-bearing system? It seems like all Musk's announcement did was give cachet to tube train maglev.

Re: Switzerland to test ‘hyperloop’ train technologies

#13

Post by dnautics »

aidenn0 wrote: post #12
Animats wrote: post #9

The Dubai-Abu Dhabi hyperloop had a lot more potential.[1] Flat undeveloped desert along most of the route, the best case for a tube train. But the UAE government is backing off on support. Nobody really wants to build Musk's hovercraft-like system. They're all maglev in vacuum systems. Meanwhile, Japan's JR continues to tunnel for the Tokyo-Nagoya maglev. They have 42km of working track and rolling stock. It's expen…

You don't happen to know why nobody wants the air-bearing system? It seems like all Musk's announcement did was give cachet to tube train maglev.

Is it maglev? Iirc it's a passive magnetic system, like inductrac... Which has recently come off patent.

Re: Switzerland to test ‘hyperloop’ train technologies

#14

Post by om42 »

aidenn0 wrote: post #12
Animats wrote: post #9

The Dubai-Abu Dhabi hyperloop had a lot more potential.[1] Flat undeveloped desert along most of the route, the best case for a tube train. But the UAE government is backing off on support. Nobody really wants to build Musk's hovercraft-like system. They're all maglev in vacuum systems. Meanwhile, Japan's JR continues to tunnel for the Tokyo-Nagoya maglev. They have 42km of working track and rolling stock. It's expen…

You don't happen to know why nobody wants the air-bearing system? It seems like all Musk's announcement did was give cachet to tube train maglev.

Air bearings are expensive and have a very low clearance (talking about tens of microns). The lower clearance raises the issue of safety. If I remember correctly, to get that to be greater than tens of microns you need larger compressors and lower operating pressure inside the tube which increases costs and it tougher to maintain.

If you take a look at the SpaceX Hyperloop competition the teams moved away from using air bearings mostly due to the low clearances and the challenges it brought. Maybe on Mars it could be more realistic.

Re: Switzerland to test ‘hyperloop’ train technologies

#15

Post by ucaetano »

ceejayoz wrote: post #11
Animats wrote: post #9

The Dubai-Abu Dhabi hyperloop had a lot more potential.[1] Flat undeveloped desert along most of the route, the best case for a tube train. But the UAE government is backing off on support. Nobody really wants to build Musk's hovercraft-like system. They're all maglev in vacuum systems. Meanwhile, Japan's JR continues to tunnel for the Tokyo-Nagoya maglev. They have 42km of working track and rolling stock. It's expen…

Swiss citizens travel more kilometers by rail per capita than any other country in the world. If you're going to implement a new form of public transit, they're a pretty good place to look.

> If you're going to implement a new form of public transit, they're a pretty good place to look.

Not really. Most of Switzerland's transit is through rail, particularly standard gouge. Introducing a completely new, incompatible form of transit in a highly integrated network is a bad idea. You have to build entirely new infrastructure, stations, etc. All of them incompatible with the existing infrastructure.

It is the same reasons why the Germans didn't chose Transrapid for high-speed rail.

New types of transportation only ever make sense in a place with no or little existing transit infrastructure.

Re: Switzerland to test ‘hyperloop’ train technologies

#16

Post by PunchTornado »

ucaetano wrote: post #15
ceejayoz wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Swiss citizens travel more kilometers by rail per capita than any other country in the world. If you're going to implement a new form of public transit, they're a pretty good place to look.

> If you're going to implement a new form of public transit, they're a pretty good place to look. Not really. Most of Switzerland's transit is through rail, particularly standard gouge. Introducing a completely new, incompatible form of transit in a highly integrated network is a bad idea. You have to build entirely new infrastructure, stations, etc. All of them incompatible with the existing infrastructure. It is th…

don't agree, because it's harder to get the population to use it.

Re: Switzerland to test ‘hyperloop’ train technologies

#17

Post by [deleted] »

om42 wrote: post #14
aidenn0 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't happen to know why nobody wants the air-bearing system? It seems like all Musk's announcement did was give cachet to tube train maglev.

Air bearings are expensive and have a very low clearance (talking about tens of microns). The lower clearance raises the issue of safety. If I remember correctly, to get that to be greater than tens of microns you need larger compressors and lower operating pressure inside the tube which increases costs and it tougher to maintain. If you take a look at the SpaceX Hyperloop competition the teams moved away from using…

[deleted]

Re: Switzerland to test ‘hyperloop’ train technologies

#18

Post by ceejayoz »

ucaetano wrote: post #15
ceejayoz wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Swiss citizens travel more kilometers by rail per capita than any other country in the world. If you're going to implement a new form of public transit, they're a pretty good place to look.

> If you're going to implement a new form of public transit, they're a pretty good place to look. Not really. Most of Switzerland's transit is through rail, particularly standard gouge. Introducing a completely new, incompatible form of transit in a highly integrated network is a bad idea. You have to build entirely new infrastructure, stations, etc. All of them incompatible with the existing infrastructure. It is th…

A culture of public investment and use of transit is important. America's car-centric culture, for example, has been a major impediment to public transit projects here.

The Swiss network fairly seamlessly integrates multiple forms of transit into one network - both public and private rail, buses, boats, light rail, trams, etc. Bus stops are timed so the trains they connect to are there at the right time for a seamless switch.

Re: Switzerland to test ‘hyperloop’ train technologies

#19

Post by icefo »

Damn it feels super weird to hear something about my childhood village on HN.

There is also a recently closed refinery there. The funny thing is that they never budgeted the decommissioning cost when it was built. So there is no money to do it and it's probably going to stay like that forever.

I hope the don't do the same for this project.

Re: Switzerland to test ‘hyperloop’ train technologies

#20

Post by ucaetano »

ceejayoz wrote: post #18
ucaetano wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you're going to implement a new form of public transit, they're a pretty good place to look. Not really. Most of Switzerland's transit is through rail, particularly standard gouge. Introducing a completely new, incompatible form of transit in a highly integrated network is a bad idea. You have to build entirely new infrastructure, stations, etc. All of them incompatible with the existing infrastructure. It is th…

A culture of public investment and use of transit is important. America's car-centric culture, for example, has been a major impediment to public transit projects here. The Swiss network fairly seamlessly integrates multiple forms of transit into one network - both public and private rail, buses, boats, light rail, trams, etc. Bus stops are timed so the trains they connect to are there at the right time for a seamles…

Indeed, but the network benefits dramatically from - naturally - network effects.

Today you rarely ever see infrastructure projects in Switzerland which are incompatible with the existing network. If you build a hyperloop tunnel, only hyperloop cars will be able to use it, and only in the tunnel. If you build a rail tunnel, it is automatically integrated into the huge existing rail infrastructure.

Unless, of course, you built an entire new infrastructure, such as Japan and France did. But Switzerland doesn't need entirely new transit infrastructure today, just localized upgrades.

That's the same reason why maglev hardly ever caught up in the world.

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