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Why airlines tend to be unionized

philip.greenspun.com

11–20 of 69 posts

Re: Why airlines tend to be unionized

#11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm fine with it. I don't care very much whether airline profits go to the company or the employees. I don't care if pilots have to deal with an unstable industry. As far as I'm concerned they are complicit in it by voting the way they do in union elections. They have brought it upon themselves. (With apologies to all the pilots that vote for saner policies -- I tend to see large groups of strangers as single entitie…

>I can fly anywhere I want with insane convenience. At least you could before 9/11. Pre-9/11 I would have flown anywhere that was more than 3 hours away. Now I would drive up to 10 hours to avoid flying.

It adds 15 minutes to the trip. It makes no pragmatic sense to shift your crossover point back seven hours in response.

But I suppose if you derive some serious negative utility from security inspections that would make sense for your personal case.

Re: Why airlines tend to be unionized

#12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I can fly anywhere I want with insane convenience. At least you could before 9/11. Pre-9/11 I would have flown anywhere that was more than 3 hours away. Now I would drive up to 10 hours to avoid flying.

It adds 15 minutes to the trip. It makes no pragmatic sense to shift your crossover point back seven hours in response. But I suppose if you derive some serious negative utility from security inspections that would make sense for your personal case.

[deleted]

Re: Why airlines tend to be unionized

#13
A bit meta, but it's interesting to see how much this guy has reinvented himself over the years. Going from running the biggest, loudest, and most profitable software consulting firm in the world... to retiring to play with photography and airplanes... to junior pilot at a small airline.

Some might say going from $MM/year CEO to $18k/year new guy would be a step down, but he seems to be genuinely enjoying the ride. I especially like how he keeps the whole "dot com millionaire" thing hidden on his aviation resume:

http://philip.greenspun.com/narcissism/resume

http://philip.greenspun.com/flying/resume

If you haven't read about the guy, it's worth picking up a copy of Founders at Work just for his interview.

Re: Why airlines tend to be unionized

#15
who controls the pilot's union: very senior pilots.

Most airlines are made of a lot of junior pilots. Junior is a relative term because you can be with the airline for a decade and be considered a junior. The senior pilot making $300k is an anomaly at the airline, like the Welfare Queen in politics. So when the airline wants to cut salaries these dozen (for a large airline) or so senior guys, that are almost near retirement, are the ones put on the press release as the big bad pilots. To the guy making $300k taking a 25% paycut, its not a big deal, the guy making $16k taking a 25% paycut, BIG fucking deal.

And just like politics, airline pilot unions don't always vote rationally. They could vote in a system that randomizes schedule according to availability, but they'd much rather keep the bid system. I guess its a case of "I got mine" where the senior guys get to choose the priciest routes. And the junior guy wants what senior has even if its costing him. Taxes on the rich are the same, they are an easy target but the middle class don't want it because they might be one of them one day.

I don't think you'll find a person alive willing to say I, with 25+ years, is okay with you firing me if the junior gets to keep his job. No one wants to be furloughed and as you get higher up in the company the stakes get higher so don't expect this piece of union contracts to change. Not for pilots, not for detroit, not even in the IT sector; you know, last hired first fired.

If airlines paid workers according to personal experience and skill rather than seniority within their particular airline, pilots would be more likely to live near where they worked.

Capt. Sully could stay in SF but there are more senior pilots who are just as experienced as him, there. To move up the ladder he chose to go to NC. Hell, even Heather Poole, FA blogger on gadling, chose to take NYC while living in LA. Your choice is either to get experience working at a different FBO, or be on reserve, sitting in the terminal, not getting any experience. Tough choice, huh?

An airline that is successful and growing will enjoy lower costs because of the new pilots being hired for almost nothing.

If you are referring to LCCs most are just a proving ground for pilots until they can make it to mainline carrier. So you have cheap, inexperienced pilots and lots of churn with the best, most experienced pilots leaving for better conditions. I'd like to point out that LCCs like Jetblue and SWA are anomalies. Most LCCs operate on razor thin margins and are usually just a few months away from bankruptcy. The good ones grow the bad ones you never hear about.

Also, for airlines the biggest expense is the plane itself. labor is such a minuscule part of the operating budget that if they are in trouble cutting there is just laughable excercise. The pilots, the flight crew, and the ground crew know this. A declining airline will, in this order, cut routes, crew, and then aircraft. With the aircraft being the 800lb gorilla in the room.

The author is type-rated in the Canadair Regional Jet and Cessna Citation Mustang and has more than 3500 hours of flying experience

Most mainlines require 5000 hours. For now, you couldn't get a job with the big boys even if you wanted to. Anyway, when you do cross that threshold and see things from the other seat I wonder if you'll have the same opinion. In any case godspeed with your career.

Re: Why airlines tend to be unionized

#16
post #7

This seems a bit strange. If pilots were actually taking nearly all airline earnings, why are there airlines at all? Running an airline requires a substantial capital investment, and if the return on those investments is effectively zero (or much smaller than other businesses), then there shouldn't be airlines because it's just not a profitable business, right? The other thing is, given the rules he outlines, an airl…

hiring more junior pilots and firing senior pilots

This would not be permitted by the union - he covers that later in the article.

Re: Why airlines tend to be unionized

#17
post #8

A pilot's job is one of the easiest to replace with a computer. It is already happening in the military. In fact, the only actual role of a pilot today is to take off and land the plane, the rest is auto-pilot. If the unions make it so hard to employ humans, it would only give incentive to further develop auto pilots, and the problem will solve itself.

Computers don't right the rules, people do and guess who works in the FAA? Former pilots.

Autonomous drones can already fly but they block off dozens of sq.miles for them to fly. Anyway there is legislation going up to allow drones in controlled airspace. Guess what? It requires each one to get the same type rating and hours as a commercial pilot. Which increases the cost significantly.

Re: Why airlines tend to be unionized

#18
post #6

Regardless of whether the U.S. is able to maintain its trade barriers, a sustainable long-term structure would be a pilot-owned airline. If the pilots are the owners there need be no conflict concerning distributing profits. Selling the company to the union, or rather, worker-owned companies seem to be the best case solution to the "union problem" - If my employees started unionizing, that'd be my first shot at a sol…

United (UAL) would be an example of that happens when you do that (the result in my experience is resentful cabin crew who treat passengers as if they're doing us a favour by allowing us aboard their personal vehicles).

Re: Why airlines tend to be unionized

#19
post #8

A pilot's job is one of the easiest to replace with a computer. It is already happening in the military. In fact, the only actual role of a pilot today is to take off and land the plane, the rest is auto-pilot. If the unions make it so hard to employ humans, it would only give incentive to further develop auto pilots, and the problem will solve itself.

Landing is typically done on autopilot these days; it is done manually to maintain a pilot's rating or for exceptional reasons.

...and under fair weather conditions. Under more adverse conditions will be done manually.

It's fairly easy to tell a computer, "See that line (runway slope), follow it".

Re: Why airlines tend to be unionized

#20
post #6

Regardless of whether the U.S. is able to maintain its trade barriers, a sustainable long-term structure would be a pilot-owned airline. If the pilots are the owners there need be no conflict concerning distributing profits. Selling the company to the union, or rather, worker-owned companies seem to be the best case solution to the "union problem" - If my employees started unionizing, that'd be my first shot at a sol…

Actually it would be more like, you sold it to the employees but they left you in charge since they don't have any experience running the company. Now you are free to make all the stupid decisions you like and they are stuck with the consequences. Great deal!
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