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Bogle Sounds a Warning on Index Funds

wsj.com

11–20 of 234 posts

Re: Bogle Sounds a Warning on Index Funds

#11
post #7

If the stock market becomes dominated by copycats copying each other , can it price equity risk accurately?

> can it price equity risk accurately?

When was the last time they did that anyway? Or tried? For a while, Wall Street has been more interested in predictability or volatility than in actual risk. They flat-out don't care whether an investment will tank, so long as they can predict (or sometimes even control) the timing. Or use some minute technological advantage to reap the rewards before someone else does. The very nature of hedge funds is to be good at measuring potential arbitrage rewards, not actual risk. Copycat behavior only exacerbates a problem that already existed.

Re: Bogle Sounds a Warning on Index Funds

#12
post #7

If the stock market becomes dominated by copycats copying each other , can it price equity risk accurately?

Sure, as long as there are some individuals or firms who are not invested into index funds. Theoretically they might even prefer this situation, since if they can accurately price equity risk they will make more money if everyone else is wrong.

Re: Bogle Sounds a Warning on Index Funds

#13
post #6

A bit click-baity, but the warning here from the father-of-index-funds is not that they've become a bad investment, but that their popularity is leading toward a handful of financial institutions holding controlling interests in most of the largest companies. Pretty interesting unitended consequence.

I have a hard time seeing it as unintended. If you are not promising any differentiation between yourself and the index than the only thing to really compete on is cost. There are economies of scale in finance, specifically if you need to optimize solely for AUM.

There's definitely a race to the bottom going on with the free Fidelity funds and Vanguard reducing the dollar minimum by 70% for a lot of admiral shares.

Re: Bogle Sounds a Warning on Index Funds

#14
Maybe I'm misunderstanding something, because I find it odd to hear this from Bogle himself. Vanguard doesn't own or control the equities in their index funds. You do. Vanguard is structured so that you can own your piece of the index fund pie. And while there are large holders of index funds such as Vanguard's Total Stock Market fund, I don't think there are any majority holders. For 51% of equities to be channeled through Vanguard but owned by stockholders does not seem to be a risk.

If I'm wrong, can you explain what I'm wrong about?

Re: Bogle Sounds a Warning on Index Funds

#15

Is there anything legally preventing these funds from having some kind of system where you have fractional voting rights proportional to your number of shares in the mutual fund vs. the weight of the company in the index it represent? e.g. You have 100 shares of a mutual fund that has 1% of its holdings in some company- thus you have 1 vote for that company's shareholder ballot, or whatever the fractional representat…

They could even just hold their own internal vote immediately before the actual vote and net out the results. Then vote this result in the actual vote. I don't think there is a rule that if you vote, you must vote with every share.

Also gets rid of any issues of fractional voting; they can track fractional votes in the internal vote, and then just round the result in the actual vote.

The biggest problem is that generally index funds try to take a pretty passive approach to management decisions (although they do vote in some circumstances). If the index funds allow their investors to vote on everything, to some extent they stop being an index fund that passively tracks the market.

Re: Bogle Sounds a Warning on Index Funds

#16

This is fascinating. Selfishly though this seems to signal for investors of index funds (such as myself) that they will only continue to be good investments unless major government regulation occurs. Does anyone know of any investment risk to index funds if everyone is now doing it?

A risk is one of the options, which is a breakup of existing funds: "Force giant index funds to spin off their assets into a number of separate entities, each independently managed. Such a drastic step would—and should—face near-insurmountable obstacles, for it would create havoc for index investors and managers alike."

Re: Bogle Sounds a Warning on Index Funds

#17
A while ago some article had a great example of what can happen if the majority of shares of most companies in the same industry are held by the same investors: It punishes competition within the same industry. The example was about the airline industry where investors don't want airlines to go head to head on pricing. While some companies might benefit from this, it would lead to lower margins and thus profits for the industry as a whole. So this in essence might form a cartel.

Re: Bogle Sounds a Warning on Index Funds

#18

This is fascinating. Selfishly though this seems to signal for investors of index funds (such as myself) that they will only continue to be good investments unless major government regulation occurs. Does anyone know of any investment risk to index funds if everyone is now doing it?

The risk is because index funds don't do stock analysis (instead they buy and hold all stocks) they will invest in bad companies and prop their price up. Then when the bad company goes bankrupt (as everyone paying attention knows will happen) the index funds are left holding all the stock suddenly worth nothing.

Which is to say the traditional more expensive managed funds that actually pay attention to the fundamentals of the companies they invest in should see a comeback. While this style of fund is more expensive (because a human can only examine a few companies in a year in enough detail to decide if they are worth investing in - as a full time job you can maybe do 50) by investing only in companies that will do better than average they can beat the market (or shorting if you want to play companies that will do far worse than average). So far the low costs of index funds have made them a better investment despite them not investing in strong companies, but we should see the day where a managed fund can beat the index funds just because the index funds are leaving the advantages of analysis on the table.

You can argue [meaning this might or might not be correct] that historically managed funds have done worse than index funds because there are so many managers that anytime there is a slight deal someone jumps on it before the deal is large enough to pay for the costs of finding it. However if you don't jump on it someone else will and they make something on the deal while you make nothing. Thus as index funds take over there will be more and more deals for the managers to find, and managers can wait until they are large enough to be worth the price.

It will be interesting to see when/where the line is crossed.

Re: Bogle Sounds a Warning on Index Funds

#19
post #13
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a hard time seeing it as unintended. If you are not promising any differentiation between yourself and the index than the only thing to really compete on is cost. There are economies of scale in finance, specifically if you need to optimize solely for AUM.

There's definitely a race to the bottom going on with the free Fidelity funds and Vanguard reducing the dollar minimum by 70% for a lot of admiral shares.

Vanguard is doing "Auto" Admiral too -- if you meet the 3k minimums for Admiral funds they're auto converting you anyway.

Race to the bottom or not, competition works.

Re: Bogle Sounds a Warning on Index Funds

#20
(Index) funds solve a problem that we shouldn't really have anymore.

The problem is that (semi) manually trading securities is inherently expensive.

Funds solve that problem by massively reducing the number of transactions that are required: 1000 people investing in a fund investing in 1000 companies needs 2000 transactions instead of the 1000000 transactions needed when 1000 people invest in 1000 companies directly.

But there really is no fundamental reason anymore why you shouldn't be able to just buy small numbers of shares from a thousand companies via electronic systems. A million transactions is not really a problem for modern IT, nor is managing 1000 positions in your account.

Yes, there are some more practical problems (the valuation of individual stocks being too high for small investors to buy even a single one, preventing front running on index changes, tax refunds, ...) - but I would think all of those should be possible to solve in a way that is both economically feasible and has the individual investor holding the actual stock to prevent those accumulations of power. And you still could have the possibility to delegate your voting rights to some organization you trust--but that could be decoupled from the investment "product" or account itself, plus you wouldn't be required to delegate the power for all your investments.

Or we could just make laws that mandate that funds must delegate voting rights to their investors, i.e., make it as if they were holding the stocks directly in that regard?

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