Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Bee-brained

aeon.co

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

11–20 of 42 posts

Re: Bee-brained

#11

Post by ivanhoe »

pavel_lishin wrote: post #6

I'm probably not qualified to say this, but just about every example of consciousness in bees and flies that they described could just as easily be explained if they were automatons.

In my experience social insects have much more individuality than most people believe. I kept ants for a while and it was shocking to me how each of them has it's own, unique patterns of behavior. Some like to wander far outside, some prefer to stay close to the entrance. Some are more aggressive, some less. They react to danger and feeding differently, some are easily crazed out, some stay calm. It's hard to see this because they all look very similar and there's a lot of them, but with time you learn to recognize some, and then it becomes obvious that they totally have their own personalities.

Re: Bee-brained

#12

Post by jjtheblunt »

fiblye wrote: post #3

Really interesting article. It's seeming like the more we learn about other life, the more we realize not much separates humans but a couple of thumbs and some decent dexterity. I wonder if someday we'll reach a point where we recognize consciousness in most animals and think it was ridiculous that earlier people didn't see such an obvious fact. Just like how "common knowledge" just a few decades/years ago was that b…

It's not that they don't recognize it, it's that the knowingly don't want to believe it, authorized by religions to kill animals for food and mistreat them in general.

Re: Bee-brained

#13

Post by LitFan »

jjtheblunt wrote: post #12
fiblye wrote: post #3

Really interesting article. It's seeming like the more we learn about other life, the more we realize not much separates humans but a couple of thumbs and some decent dexterity. I wonder if someday we'll reach a point where we recognize consciousness in most animals and think it was ridiculous that earlier people didn't see such an obvious fact. Just like how "common knowledge" just a few decades/years ago was that b…

It's not that they don't recognize it, it's that the knowingly don't want to believe it, authorized by religions to kill animals for food and mistreat them in general.

It's a stretch to say that religion 'authorizes' us to mistreat/eat animals.

Animals eat other animals. We're animals, so we do that, too.

If anything, religions largely promote treating animals properly, because they're some form of gods' creatures.

Re: Bee-brained

#14

Post by ajuc »

LitFan wrote: post #13
jjtheblunt wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that they don't recognize it, it's that the knowingly don't want to believe it, authorized by religions to kill animals for food and mistreat them in general.

It's a stretch to say that religion 'authorizes' us to mistreat/eat animals. Animals eat other animals. We're animals, so we do that, too. If anything, religions largely promote treating animals properly, because they're some form of gods' creatures.

> It's a stretch to say that religion 'authorizes' us to mistreat/eat animals.

"Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and every creature that crawls upon the earth."

Of course people would do it anyway, especially when they had no other choice (nowadays we could live without exploiting animals, it would even be cheaper and more ecologic - but before we knew chemistry and biology we had at least some excuses).

But at least Bible-based religions clearly legitimize abuse of animals, and treating animals as mindless things that don't have feelings nor rights. Even now in my country ecologists/vegans are one of the groups considered enemies of "natural order" by influential religious media (Rydzyk media-empire in Poland for one example).

It's not an accident that animals don't have souls according to Catholicism.

Re: Bee-brained

#15

Post by LitFan »

ajuc wrote: post #14
LitFan wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a stretch to say that religion 'authorizes' us to mistreat/eat animals. Animals eat other animals. We're animals, so we do that, too. If anything, religions largely promote treating animals properly, because they're some form of gods' creatures.

> It's a stretch to say that religion 'authorizes' us to mistreat/eat animals. "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and every creature that crawls upon the earth." Of course people would do it anyway, especially when they had no other choice (nowadays we could live without exploiting animals, it would even be cheaper and more ecologic - bu…

Unfortunately, those groups, like many others who intend to control people with religion, cherry picked an example that fits their rhetoric.

The bible is often contradictory, and in it you can also find these:

> 'He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man' (Isaiah 66.3)

> 'For meat destroy not the work of God' (Romans 14.19-21)

> 'A righteous man regardeth the life of the beast' (Proverbs 12.10)

Christianity doesn't represent the majority of religions (~31.5%). Islam, Hinduism, and Buddhism all advocate for animal rights (~45.3%).

Re: Bee-brained

#16

Post by nine_k »

fiblye wrote: post #3

Really interesting article. It's seeming like the more we learn about other life, the more we realize not much separates humans but a couple of thumbs and some decent dexterity. I wonder if someday we'll reach a point where we recognize consciousness in most animals and think it was ridiculous that earlier people didn't see such an obvious fact. Just like how "common knowledge" just a few decades/years ago was that b…

The key thing humans got is replacing the genetic evolution by memetic evolution, aka culture, powered by structured communication aka speech. This allowed for organizations above the Dunbar number, and very quick evolution of behaviors without constantly killing and re-spawning physical bodies.

Some advanced animals, like wolves, have something resembling a passing of cultural knowledge: they teach their young how to hunt particular prey, and this may differs seriously between packs and types of prey. But they lack speech, so they can't pass more complex ideas.

Cetaceans are said to have consciousness not unlike humans'; maybe they have speech and an advanced culture; we don't know. But they lack means of manipulation and live mostly floating above abyss, so they don't have a material culture and technology.

Quite possibly it's not an exceptional intellectual capability that singled out humans among comparably intelligent animals, but the (proto-)speech ability. The advances in intelligence then followed, being evolutionary beneficial.

Re: Bee-brained

#17

Post by maxwell »

fiblye wrote: post #3

Really interesting article. It's seeming like the more we learn about other life, the more we realize not much separates humans but a couple of thumbs and some decent dexterity. I wonder if someday we'll reach a point where we recognize consciousness in most animals and think it was ridiculous that earlier people didn't see such an obvious fact. Just like how "common knowledge" just a few decades/years ago was that b…

Lots of animals have opposable thumbs: https://animalsake.com/list-of-animals-with-opposable-thumbs

The only thing that makes the Homo genus unique is control of fire.

Re: Bee-brained

#18

Post by JoeAltmaier »

maxwell wrote: post #17
fiblye wrote: post #3

Really interesting article. It's seeming like the more we learn about other life, the more we realize not much separates humans but a couple of thumbs and some decent dexterity. I wonder if someday we'll reach a point where we recognize consciousness in most animals and think it was ridiculous that earlier people didn't see such an obvious fact. Just like how "common knowledge" just a few decades/years ago was that b…

Lots of animals have opposable thumbs: https://animalsake.com/list-of-animals-with-opposable-thumbs The only thing that makes the Homo genus unique is control of fire.

And our genetic code. And schools and fire departments and lasers.

Re: Bee-brained

#19

Post by maxwell »

nine_k wrote: post #16
fiblye wrote: post #3

Really interesting article. It's seeming like the more we learn about other life, the more we realize not much separates humans but a couple of thumbs and some decent dexterity. I wonder if someday we'll reach a point where we recognize consciousness in most animals and think it was ridiculous that earlier people didn't see such an obvious fact. Just like how "common knowledge" just a few decades/years ago was that b…

The key thing humans got is replacing the genetic evolution by memetic evolution, aka culture, powered by structured communication aka speech. This allowed for organizations above the Dunbar number, and very quick evolution of behaviors without constantly killing and re-spawning physical bodies. Some advanced animals, like wolves, have something resembling a passing of cultural knowledge: they teach their young how t…

> Cetaceans are said to have consciousness not unlike humans'; maybe they have speech and an advanced culture; we don't know. But they lack means of manipulation and live mostly floating above abyss, so they don't have a material culture and technology.

You refuted your own argument. Sounds like it's more about the "material culture and technology", which started with control of fire.

No living species other than Homo sapiens harnesses fire.

Re: Bee-brained

#20

Post by nine_k »

maxwell wrote: post #19
nine_k wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The key thing humans got is replacing the genetic evolution by memetic evolution, aka culture, powered by structured communication aka speech. This allowed for organizations above the Dunbar number, and very quick evolution of behaviors without constantly killing and re-spawning physical bodies. Some advanced animals, like wolves, have something resembling a passing of cultural knowledge: they teach their young how t…

> Cetaceans are said to have consciousness not unlike humans'; maybe they have speech and an advanced culture; we don't know. But they lack means of manipulation and live mostly floating above abyss, so they don't have a material culture and technology. You refuted your own argument. Sounds like it's more about the "material culture and technology", which started with control of fire. No living species other than Hom…

Yes, fire was a key thing in the development of technology, and then (a few hundred thousand years later) domination of the biosphere.

What I mean that animals which did not develop technology may have other kinds of advanced culture, such as that we would recognize as culture, e.g. in social organization and explanation of the world ("philosophy"), and/or art — it they have a capability for structured communication and thus capable to pass more and more complex knowledge across generations.

Post reply on HN