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The ‘Geno-Economists’ Say DNA Can Predict Our Chances of Success

nytimes.com

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Re: The ‘Geno-Economists’ Say DNA Can Predict Our Chances of Success

#11

Post by shubb »

hirundo wrote: post #4
starbeast wrote: post #3

I bet it can. It can also tell you how much you are likely to inherit and what network of people you are linked to as well.

> It can also tell you how much you are likely to inherit and what network of people you are linked to as well. Only to the extent that your parents have the same DNA. The point is that economic success is strongly correlated to genetics independently of social position and nurturing. Of course this will be controversial; it's the same kind of conclusion that spurred the Soviet Union to promote Lysenkoism and suppres…

Here in the UK, about 1000 years ago, the French invaded and took over, siezing control of the (basically German) population by replacing the top level of society.

Suddely, the lords were French and the serfs were German.

1000 years later, you can predict someones socio-economic level by surname. French surnames do better than German ones. Surnames linked by blood to royalty do better than both.

1000 years. Lack of social mobility overrides genetics?

[I'm sure you can do better than this link but its what I found: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/842...]

Re: The ‘Geno-Economists’ Say DNA Can Predict Our Chances of Success

#12

Post by starbeast »

hirundo wrote: post #4
starbeast wrote: post #3

I bet it can. It can also tell you how much you are likely to inherit and what network of people you are linked to as well.

> It can also tell you how much you are likely to inherit and what network of people you are linked to as well. Only to the extent that your parents have the same DNA. The point is that economic success is strongly correlated to genetics independently of social position and nurturing. Of course this will be controversial; it's the same kind of conclusion that spurred the Soviet Union to promote Lysenkoism and suppres…

Economic success is also very strongly correlated to height.

Now, height is only about 70% genetic, 30% is diet and other environmental factors, but if you were looking at DNA and financial outcomes without any nod to culture, you might conclude tall people are naturally good at business.

Invader Zim satirised the culture of this pretty well with the aliens being led by 'The Tallest'.

Re: The ‘Geno-Economists’ Say DNA Can Predict Our Chances of Success

#13

Post by kiliantics »

nyrulez wrote: post #8

Unless we have a complete picture of "success", which means: - How much of our behavior, habits, intelligence and success comes from the environment ? - How much of stuff like education levels, income levels come from birth, social and environmental factors? - How epigenetics shapes our life in a dynamic fashion? This field is pretty new, and we have just begin to understand it. - What is intelligence or success in t…

> all of this is extremely reductionist at best and trying to push a malicious self serving agenda at the worst which can cause havoc in hands of any stupid policy makers.

First thing that came to mind for me was eugenics. This kind of pseudoscience is very dangerous.

Re: The ‘Geno-Economists’ Say DNA Can Predict Our Chances of Success

#16

Post by orbifold »

shubb wrote: post #11
hirundo wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It can also tell you how much you are likely to inherit and what network of people you are linked to as well. Only to the extent that your parents have the same DNA. The point is that economic success is strongly correlated to genetics independently of social position and nurturing. Of course this will be controversial; it's the same kind of conclusion that spurred the Soviet Union to promote Lysenkoism and suppres…

Here in the UK, about 1000 years ago, the French invaded and took over, siezing control of the (basically German) population by replacing the top level of society. Suddely, the lords were French and the serfs were German. 1000 years later, you can predict someones socio-economic level by surname. French surnames do better than German ones. Surnames linked by blood to royalty do better than both. 1000 years. Lack of s…

I would say that a successful male has more choice in women to reproduce with. Presumably whoever is chosen has above average genetic material as well. So it’s not so surprising that one can still see an effect of this. Moreover success in high society requires a different set of skills than success as a peasant.

Re: The ‘Geno-Economists’ Say DNA Can Predict Our Chances of Success

#17

Post by jvanderbot »

It seems clear to me that the role of genetics is to prepare you to survive/thrive in your parents' (and grandparents') environment. I would assume that as the environment changes over time, that the genetic makeup of their children would change (over generations), due to varying demands and "marrying up." Maybe environmental changes are limited to epigenetic changes, and "marrying up" produces the real genome variation, but still, the story is more complicated.

A short-sighted focus on "keeping people where their genes fit" ignores our tendency to improve our communities by conscious effort, up to and (by collaboration) beyond our innate capabilities.

I really dislike the focus on the individual and the "sorting problem", as distinct from the focus on community.

Re: The ‘Geno-Economists’ Say DNA Can Predict Our Chances of Success

#18

Post by hirundo »

> All men are created equal.

- U.S. Declaration of Independence

The above statement is false. That's more clear than ever and geno-economics contributes to that clarity. If you live your life by this assumption you will get many important things wrong.

Yet this clearly wrong statement, as applied to the operation of the rule of law, is also one of the most brilliant, important and useful concepts invented by civilization. As a proposition for how to engineer law to support a flourishing society, it is true and right.

I think that's the right way to deal with this controversy. Acknowledge that people have significant and important differences that are beyond their control, while also acknowledging that such difference can be overwhelmed by the effects of their nurturing and other controllable differences, such that it's better to judge them holistically and personally when that data is available.

Re: The ‘Geno-Economists’ Say DNA Can Predict Our Chances of Success

#19

Post by Iamhisalt »

hirundo wrote: post #18

> All men are created equal. - U.S. Declaration of Independence The above statement is false. That's more clear than ever and geno-economics contributes to that clarity. If you live your life by this assumption you will get many important things wrong. Yet this clearly wrong statement, as applied to the operation of the rule of law, is also one of the most brilliant, important and useful concepts invented by civiliza…

“All men are created equal” - “before God.”

The last two words are how the founders interpreted that statement when written.

They were all male, wealthy and white. People allowed to participate in government were the same.

Re: The ‘Geno-Economists’ Say DNA Can Predict Our Chances of Success

#20

Post by jvanderbot »

hirundo wrote: post #18

> All men are created equal. - U.S. Declaration of Independence The above statement is false. That's more clear than ever and geno-economics contributes to that clarity. If you live your life by this assumption you will get many important things wrong. Yet this clearly wrong statement, as applied to the operation of the rule of law, is also one of the most brilliant, important and useful concepts invented by civiliza…

There's a huge distinction between right in fact and right in policy.
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