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SMT Solving on an iPhone

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Re: SMT Solving on an iPhone

#11

Post by krackers »

ekr wrote: post #10
yazr wrote: post #3

a. single threaded code b. extended benchmark duration - no thermal throttling encountered c. straight forward C compiler - no special code for the GPU unit or whatever d. main reason is probably memory and cache configuration I think it is time to consider A(RM) and Intel cores at par. Qualcomm cores maybe X% slower but they will close the gap. It is now a question of system trade-offs, as designers jangle memory si…

The consequences of that are big. This will lead to commoditization of IP cores, cpus, and this will lead to a race to the bottom with the likes of Allwinner, Amlogic, Rockchip, NXP offering products competitive with Intel, Amd, Apple, Samsung. As the margins will go to near-0, companies like Intel will suffer the most. This is assuming that semiconductor process improvements will significantly slow down or completel…

Where would risc-v fit into this? I'd assume it'd help accelerate the commoditization, maybe not in the server space at first but definitely for IoT and embedded applications.

Re: SMT Solving on an iPhone

#12

Post by makapuf »

ekr wrote: post #10
yazr wrote: post #3

a. single threaded code b. extended benchmark duration - no thermal throttling encountered c. straight forward C compiler - no special code for the GPU unit or whatever d. main reason is probably memory and cache configuration I think it is time to consider A(RM) and Intel cores at par. Qualcomm cores maybe X% slower but they will close the gap. It is now a question of system trade-offs, as designers jangle memory si…

The consequences of that are big. This will lead to commoditization of IP cores, cpus, and this will lead to a race to the bottom with the likes of Allwinner, Amlogic, Rockchip, NXP offering products competitive with Intel, Amd, Apple, Samsung. As the margins will go to near-0, companies like Intel will suffer the most. This is assuming that semiconductor process improvements will significantly slow down or completel…

Agreed this can lead to interesting times again in the cpu space. I guess this can lead to two scenarios : either there are possible improvements that are possible but were not necessary for intel to unleash to be dominant, thus leading to significant improvements (in whichever direction, parallelism, power, cache, price) and compute will be better for the same price thanks to competition or investments won't be worth the perf gains and while prices will go down, performance will stagnate since there won't be much incentive to pay ten times the price for 10% improvements (random BS numbers).

Re: SMT Solving on an iPhone

#13

Post by makapuf »

jimbokun wrote: post #9
jSully24 wrote: post #6

Could Apple's next "innovation" not be a consumer product but to own the chip world? The iPhone "just" being the beta test for the chips?

They probably don't want to sell those chips for Android to keep their competitive advantage, and the PC market is probably too small to be worth the investment compared to the iOS market.

Intel is currently worth 1/5 of Apple 1 Trillion. I guess they may want to grow by 20%, but not at the price of exclusivity oof the 1bn device market chip exclusivity - however I'm not sure anyone has an iphone because it's the best benchmark performing phone. What's next, overclocking, liquid-chilled phones ? (after looking at it for fun, yes, it does seem to exist, just look up liquid cooling gaming phone ).

Re: SMT Solving on an iPhone

#14

Post by _ph_ »

aquamo wrote: post #2

Thanks for this - with the release of the A12X Bionic, I've wanted to do something similar - i.e. build some specialized tools to leverage that CPU for atypical / non-mobile use cases. I wish Apple would get on with it and include Terminal.App and the FreeBSD user land and Xcode for iOS so we can start running a shell and doing interesting things with this new hardware :-)

Yes, as a previous-gen iPad Pro owner, the biggest regret with it is, that I cannot run even some very basic Unix programs on this great hardware. A more open iPad - even if the whole Unix userland would be contained to a sandbox - would be a dream.

Re: SMT Solving on an iPhone

#15

Post by floatboth »

yazr wrote: post #3

a. single threaded code b. extended benchmark duration - no thermal throttling encountered c. straight forward C compiler - no special code for the GPU unit or whatever d. main reason is probably memory and cache configuration I think it is time to consider A(RM) and Intel cores at par. Qualcomm cores maybe X% slower but they will close the gap. It is now a question of system trade-offs, as designers jangle memory si…

> noone has put together a real ARM alternative for the server side

Cavium (now under Marvell) and Ampere both did. Huawei/HiSilicon are also apparently coming.

(Also Qualcomm, but they quit for mysterious reasons. "Want to focus on mobile" or something.)

But these are all very high end solutions. For the low end, there's Marvell's Armada8k (MACCHIATObin)… and kind of an empty void in the middle :(

Re: SMT Solving on an iPhone

#16

Post by floatboth »

jimbokun wrote: post #9
jSully24 wrote: post #6

Could Apple's next "innovation" not be a consumer product but to own the chip world? The iPhone "just" being the beta test for the chips?

They probably don't want to sell those chips for Android to keep their competitive advantage, and the PC market is probably too small to be worth the investment compared to the iOS market.

Server market. Make it a return of the Xserve :)

Re: SMT Solving on an iPhone

#17

Post by djrogers »

yazr wrote: post #3

a. single threaded code b. extended benchmark duration - no thermal throttling encountered c. straight forward C compiler - no special code for the GPU unit or whatever d. main reason is probably memory and cache configuration I think it is time to consider A(RM) and Intel cores at par. Qualcomm cores maybe X% slower but they will close the gap. It is now a question of system trade-offs, as designers jangle memory si…

> I think it is time to consider A(RM) and Intel cores at par. Qualcomm cores maybe X% slower but they will close the gap.

I think you're vastly underestimating the value of X in the above. The latest Qualcomm cores weren't even competitive with last year's A11, and the A12 leaves them in the dust.

[1] https://www.anandtech.com/show/13392/the-iphone-xs-xs-max-re...

Re: SMT Solving on an iPhone

#18

Post by epicureanideal »

_ph_ wrote: post #14
aquamo wrote: post #2

Thanks for this - with the release of the A12X Bionic, I've wanted to do something similar - i.e. build some specialized tools to leverage that CPU for atypical / non-mobile use cases. I wish Apple would get on with it and include Terminal.App and the FreeBSD user land and Xcode for iOS so we can start running a shell and doing interesting things with this new hardware :-)

Yes, as a previous-gen iPad Pro owner, the biggest regret with it is, that I cannot run even some very basic Unix programs on this great hardware. A more open iPad - even if the whole Unix userland would be contained to a sandbox - would be a dream.

It seems Apple has some really good profit margins on it's hardware. So, in theory nothing is stopping System76 or a new competitor from introducing high quality iPad-like Unix systems.

Re: SMT Solving on an iPhone

#19

Post by ben-schaaf »

makapuf wrote: post #13
jimbokun wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They probably don't want to sell those chips for Android to keep their competitive advantage, and the PC market is probably too small to be worth the investment compared to the iOS market.

Intel is currently worth 1/5 of Apple 1 Trillion. I guess they may want to grow by 20%, but not at the price of exclusivity oof the 1bn device market chip exclusivity - however I'm not sure anyone has an iphone because it's the best benchmark performing phone. What's next, overclocking, liquid-chilled phones ? (after looking at it for fun, yes, it does seem to exist, just look up liquid cooling gaming phone ).

I'd bet that if a mobile chip manufacturer unlocked their chip for overclocking, someone is going to put it under LN2.

Re: SMT Solving on an iPhone

#20

Post by rlorenzo »

floatboth wrote: post #16
jimbokun wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They probably don't want to sell those chips for Android to keep their competitive advantage, and the PC market is probably too small to be worth the investment compared to the iOS market.

Server market. Make it a return of the Xserve :)

Seems like Mac Minis are the new Xserve: https://www.macstadium.com/

Maybe the next upgrade of the Mac Mini in 4-5 years will be to A series of chips.

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