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In defense of Elon Musk

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Re: In defense of Elon Musk

#11

Post by gfodor »

annabellish wrote: post #9
gfodor wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you remove Elon Musk from the story, does SpaceX exist? Tesla? Do we still have self-landing, re-usable rockets? Are car companies still rushing to build electric vehicles in 2018?

The individual companies likely not, but it's not like those are the only companies doing these things. Human achievements come from standing on the shoulders of giants, not from individual supermen - we see this through history time and time again, with so many groundbreaking discoveries being independantly made at about the same time simply because previous discoveries had made them possible. This is not to diminis…

You wrote a lot but I think you answered my question: "we could be a little behind."

I'd argue that we would likely be a lot behind. Advancements don't just "happen." Progress can be lost, windows of opportunity can be closed, and risk can be avoided. I'd argue there's a good chance we'd have never gotten re-usable rockets if it wasn't for Musk's (at the time, foolish) risk taking with his personal funds to keep SpaceX solvent. Everyone at the time said it couldn't be done, if you recall, and in that kind of world, nobody is "doing the work." It's just considered not worth working on. It's out of mind. People allocate resources and time elsewhere. It's too risky anyway. We're in a period of relative peace that may or may not last. So there's a good chance no, we may have never gotten re-usable rockets, if the odds of a risk-taker coming along and giving it a shot comes along one or twice every couple of generations.

Our current space program regressing so far is evidence enough that willpower and human decision-making, not just waiting for people to "do the work", constitute a large part of what causes progress to happen.

And if we ever get to Mars, I'll argue it's even more likely that we would have never gotten to Mars without that risk taking. And who knows what potential futures unlock for humanity if that ever happens that can be traced back to Musk's decisions.

Being thankful that people like Musk are out there taking huge personal risks to advance human progress isn't "hero worship", and it doesn't disparage the work of the thousands of people who have helped achieve the goals. You are arguing with strawmen.

Re: In defense of Elon Musk

#12

Post by nikofeyn »

dpq wrote: post #8
rohit2412 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't know what's to dislike. The narcissism, the childlike behavior of arguing by insulting, constant condescension of everyone else, the incessant lying, deception, and misleading about the company and the cult of worship around him. > People these days bother me, they want to pull apart everyone else, go try do something awesome yourself. reply I do not think people criticizing Elon musk are criticizing him be…

Do you really care that much? Everything in this world is about tradeoffs. So tell me, if you had a magic button that would erase this narcissistic, childlike, condescending cult leader from history as if he was never born (or retired to the Bahamas forever after selling PayPal), would you press it? If you would, then in my opinion you are a spiteful and/or neurotic person with a distorted sense of scale. If you woul…

oh. come. on.

Re: In defense of Elon Musk

#13

Post by Noos »

The article is annoying, because of the "why" minisections. Why should we defend him? Because he tries. Because we want to go to mars. Because he redefines ambition. Because he is a superhero. Because everyone makes mistakes. Because he understands. One at least mentions the cars, another the production line improvement he made. But a lot of why they defend him is simply wishing for visionaries. Musks actual achievements are far more modest than what they think he can perform.

Re: In defense of Elon Musk

#14

Post by rohit2412 »

dpq wrote: post #8
rohit2412 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't know what's to dislike. The narcissism, the childlike behavior of arguing by insulting, constant condescension of everyone else, the incessant lying, deception, and misleading about the company and the cult of worship around him. > People these days bother me, they want to pull apart everyone else, go try do something awesome yourself. reply I do not think people criticizing Elon musk are criticizing him be…

Do you really care that much? Everything in this world is about tradeoffs. So tell me, if you had a magic button that would erase this narcissistic, childlike, condescending cult leader from history as if he was never born (or retired to the Bahamas forever after selling PayPal), would you press it? If you would, then in my opinion you are a spiteful and/or neurotic person with a distorted sense of scale. If you woul…

> If you wouldn't, then all the factors you mentioned above are really unimportant compared to the results produced by Elon, and you know it.

Actually I don't. I used to, but ever since he started spouting self driving bullshit in 2016, I have given close thought to what is really revolutionary and what is not.

Everything about Tesla is non revolutionary. It is just a lot of batteries with costly motors and shitty barebones interior sold at a loss (net, not gross). If anybody else was similarly hyped they would achieve the same. The only thing Elon musk has done in Tesla is formed a cult.

SpaceX has definitely broken new ground, but it is despite musk not because of it. Even then, they have only reused rockets once, with refurbishments. Their first double reuse is happening in December. I don't think anybody thought what they have achieved impossible, it is impressive nonetheless.

I truly think Elon musk is a net negative for both car and space industry. Commercializing space endeavour would have led to successful space startups, cheaper batteries by lg and Panasonic would make Bev lucrative anyway, maybe a few years later. But the damage done by this incessant lying about self driving would ruin public opinion. And I am not going to be surprised to know that SpaceX cutting corners led to an accident. I think the worst for Elon musk is yet to come.

Re: In defense of Elon Musk

#15

Post by tuesdayrain »

ChildOfChaos wrote: post #4

Eh.. I don't get the sudden hate for Elon, honestly, I don't know what's to dislike. People these days bother me, they want to pull apart everyone else, go try do something awesome yourself.

Any time someone achieves significant popularity, there will always be a large group of people posting long essays on the internet about how that person doesn't deserve it for whatever reason. I see it as a side effect of the crab in a bucket mentality.

Re: In defense of Elon Musk

#16

Post by futurix »

ChildOfChaos wrote: post #4

Eh.. I don't get the sudden hate for Elon, honestly, I don't know what's to dislike. People these days bother me, they want to pull apart everyone else, go try do something awesome yourself.

Sudden? There have been plenty of warning signs over the years. By the time recent shitstorm(s) started I already had a strongly negative opinion of the guy.

Re: In defense of Elon Musk

#17

Post by dpq »

rohit2412 wrote: post #14
dpq wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you really care that much? Everything in this world is about tradeoffs. So tell me, if you had a magic button that would erase this narcissistic, childlike, condescending cult leader from history as if he was never born (or retired to the Bahamas forever after selling PayPal), would you press it? If you would, then in my opinion you are a spiteful and/or neurotic person with a distorted sense of scale. If you woul…

> If you wouldn't, then all the factors you mentioned above are really unimportant compared to the results produced by Elon, and you know it. Actually I don't. I used to, but ever since he started spouting self driving bullshit in 2016, I have given close thought to what is really revolutionary and what is not. Everything about Tesla is non revolutionary. It is just a lot of batteries with costly motors and shitty ba…

Everything you just said is true. So basically in order to help some technology proliferate, somebody had to create a cult around it. Good. If the problem was social as opposed to technical, and someone correctly identified it as such and fixed it, this person does not deserve our ire or contempt for solving a social problem with social engineering. He did the right thing, in that case.

As for SpaceX: everybody has accidents, and they'll have their share, too. Space is hard. Still, since everyone has been saying that SpaceX is going to fail, and that they won't be able to pull off the next important step, and every time they did it afterwards, it sounds like the story about the boy who cried wolf now.

And yet I have no kind words for Tesla's fully self-driving project. I fully agree with you here.

Re: In defense of Elon Musk

#18

Post by rohit2412 »

dpq wrote: post #17
rohit2412 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you wouldn't, then all the factors you mentioned above are really unimportant compared to the results produced by Elon, and you know it. Actually I don't. I used to, but ever since he started spouting self driving bullshit in 2016, I have given close thought to what is really revolutionary and what is not. Everything about Tesla is non revolutionary. It is just a lot of batteries with costly motors and shitty ba…

Everything you just said is true. So basically in order to help some technology proliferate, somebody had to create a cult around it. Good. If the problem was social as opposed to technical, and someone correctly identified it as such and fixed it, this person does not deserve our ire or contempt for solving a social problem with social engineering. He did the right thing, in that case. As for SpaceX: everybody has a…

> this person does not deserve our ire or contempt for solving a social problem with social engineering. He did the right thing, in that case.

One of my issues is them claiming that it was a technical problem and other manufacturers do not want to manufacture BEV because there is some conspiracy. No, chevy bolt barely sells because it is not hyped as revolutionary and futuristic. If you think the solution staring a new cult for GM instead of addressing such FUD that is actually hurting BEV adoption. If these masses who worship Musk turned up for Chevy bolt or nissan leaf, we would have a ton more BEVs.

> everyone has been saying that SpaceX is going to fail, and that they won't be able to pull off the next important step, and every time they did it afterwards, it sounds like the story about the boy who cried wolf now.

I am not knowledgable about rockets but spacex can only use rockets twice till now with refurbishments, and nobody else seems to be pushing new rockets.

I can only wonder if Spacex is doing what tesla did to self driving, take existing technology (like driver assistance/VTVL and costly refurbishment which people could do), use them irresponsibly (call lane keeping assist autosteer and let it steer itself/cut costs using dangerous methods), and then make unsubstantiated claims about the future (self driving taxi networks with cross country summon/biggest rocket ever with thousand times reusability with minimal refurbishments).

I would only believe what they have achieved, which is impressive but nobody seems to have deemed that impossible.

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