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Bosnians who speak medieval Spanish

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Re: Bosnians who speak medieval Spanish

#11

Post by personlurking »

> ‘Adonaj es mi pastor. No mankare de nada’ (The Lord is my shepherd. I shall not want)

Mancare in Italian is to miss/need/be lacking, and although mancar in modern Portuguese is to limp, archaic Portuguese used it in the Italian sense.

> I had to listen carefully to understand, hearing words like fazer (to do) and lavorar (to work) that sounded more like Portuguese and Italian than modern Spanish. I heard sounds like "dj" [dʒ] in the word, djente (people), “z” [z] in the word roza (rose) and “sh” [ʃ] in the word pasharo (bird) that don’t exist at all in modern European Spanish.

Other direct matches and similarities: Fazer - To do (Portuguese), lavorare - to work (Italian), djente - people (Brazilian Portuguese pronunciation of gente), pássaro - bird (Portuguese). Even the z in roza, for rose, is typical of Portuguese pronunciation.

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Not related to the article but something I always found odd: In Italian, 'morbido' means 'soft' (used to describe food, among other things), while the English 'morbid' is translated as 'macabro'. Italian etymological references say this is due to the softness of diseased muscles, and it somehow just became 'soft'. All of the other Romance languages use the term in its original meaning.

Re: Bosnians who speak medieval Spanish

#12

Post by croisillon »

personlurking wrote: post #11

> ‘Adonaj es mi pastor. No mankare de nada’ (The Lord is my shepherd. I shall not want) Mancare in Italian is to miss/need/be lacking, and although mancar in modern Portuguese is to limp, archaic Portuguese used it in the Italian sense. > I had to listen carefully to understand, hearing words like fazer (to do) and lavorar (to work) that sounded more like Portuguese and Italian than modern Spanish. I heard sounds lik…

in french, "morbide" is often used indifferently for "macabre" (i guess because death is "mort"?) but according to the dictionary it means something that makes you sick (un désir morbide) or sicker than you already are

Re: Bosnians who speak medieval Spanish

#13

Post by himlion »

croisillon wrote: post #12
personlurking wrote: post #11

> ‘Adonaj es mi pastor. No mankare de nada’ (The Lord is my shepherd. I shall not want) Mancare in Italian is to miss/need/be lacking, and although mancar in modern Portuguese is to limp, archaic Portuguese used it in the Italian sense. > I had to listen carefully to understand, hearing words like fazer (to do) and lavorar (to work) that sounded more like Portuguese and Italian than modern Spanish. I heard sounds lik…

in french, "morbide" is often used indifferently for "macabre" (i guess because death is "mort"?) but according to the dictionary it means something that makes you sick (un désir morbide) or sicker than you already are

In Dutch they are used interchangeable as well.

Re: Bosnians who speak medieval Spanish

#14

Post by r3bl »

Despite all the shit that happened in Bosnia last century, Jews tend to feel safe in Bosnia. One of the oldest Sephardic Haggadahs in the world (~1350) is located in our national museum[0], and our tiny Jewish community feels like this is the safest country for them[1].

In a country where Muslims are a majority (just barely, 50 point something percent), the Synagogue mentioned in the article is in dead center of the capital with absolutely no security needed.

Edited to add: Too bad they don't have basic democratic rights. According to our constitution, the minorities can't run to be one of our three presidents (yes, three)[2].

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarajevo_Haggadah

[1] https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/europe/.premium-why-saraj... (paywalled original, I've read non-paywalled Bosnian translations).

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sejdi%C4%87_and_Finci_v._Bosni...

Re: Bosnians who speak medieval Spanish

#15

Post by pseingatl »

personlurking wrote: post #11

> ‘Adonaj es mi pastor. No mankare de nada’ (The Lord is my shepherd. I shall not want) Mancare in Italian is to miss/need/be lacking, and although mancar in modern Portuguese is to limp, archaic Portuguese used it in the Italian sense. > I had to listen carefully to understand, hearing words like fazer (to do) and lavorar (to work) that sounded more like Portuguese and Italian than modern Spanish. I heard sounds lik…

The etymology for "macabro" goes back to Arabic: "Ma qabr" means "cemetery."

I always wondered how "inshallah" became "ojalá". The 'j' sound in 'ojala' is the same as in 'pájaro' which in Ladino-as the article points out--is "pasharo" thus supplying the explanation.

How do you say "you" in Ladino? Is "usted" (possibly from Arabic "ustaad") used, or do they use an Italian or Portuguese cognate?

Re: Bosnians who speak medieval Spanish

#16

Post by Arnt »

personlurking wrote: post #11

> ‘Adonaj es mi pastor. No mankare de nada’ (The Lord is my shepherd. I shall not want) Mancare in Italian is to miss/need/be lacking, and although mancar in modern Portuguese is to limp, archaic Portuguese used it in the Italian sense. > I had to listen carefully to understand, hearing words like fazer (to do) and lavorar (to work) that sounded more like Portuguese and Italian than modern Spanish. I heard sounds lik…

There's a passage in the introduction to one of Joseph Conrad's books, I think it's Lord Jim, where he's puzzled by a reader's reaction to the book: An Italian lady found something "morbid".

Re: Bosnians who speak medieval Spanish

#17

Post by otikik »

In Spanish, "ladino" is an adjective, and its main meaning is "shrewd" or "sly". It's what you would call Aladdin's Jafar( http://disney.wikia.com/wiki/Jafar ). I hope it's just a coincidence, but I would not be surprised to find some racism in the etymology of the word. My language has several of those.

Re: Bosnians who speak medieval Spanish

#18

Post by harperlee »

personlurking wrote: post #11

> ‘Adonaj es mi pastor. No mankare de nada’ (The Lord is my shepherd. I shall not want) Mancare in Italian is to miss/need/be lacking, and although mancar in modern Portuguese is to limp, archaic Portuguese used it in the Italian sense. > I had to listen carefully to understand, hearing words like fazer (to do) and lavorar (to work) that sounded more like Portuguese and Italian than modern Spanish. I heard sounds lik…

> Mancare in Italian is to miss/need/be lacking, and although mancar in modern Portuguese is to limp

French also uses “manquer”, and there are traces in spanish (such as a manco being a person that lacks an arm).

Re: Bosnians who speak medieval Spanish

#19

Post by pseingatl »

otikik wrote: post #17

In Spanish, "ladino" is an adjective, and its main meaning is "shrewd" or "sly". It's what you would call Aladdin's Jafar( http://disney.wikia.com/wiki/Jafar ). I hope it's just a coincidence, but I would not be surprised to find some racism in the etymology of the word. My language has several of those.

Except that prior to 1492, there was no language known as "ladino." It was simply Spanish, and the Jews who were exiled continued to preserve the language. Does the community auto-identify with the term "ladino"? Or was this term imposed after the exile?

Re: Bosnians who speak medieval Spanish

#20

Post by harperlee »

asveikau wrote: post #3
dgut wrote: post #2

"[...] the language has maintained the structure of medieval Spanish and sounds more similar to some forms of Latin American Spanish than European Spanish" I've read some Ladino and the only immediately apparent difference is the spelling and a few foreign words that have entered the language. They don't speak in formal polite form (as opposed to Latin American speakers of Spanish), so in that regard, it's closer to…

You might think reading it is enough, but last I looked into this there were some phonetic changes in both Spain and Latin America that Ladino never got. For example, what happens to orthographic G before I or E? I think Ladino has [ʒ] there. Does the orthographic X become [x] or is it [ʃ]? eg. How would they say Quixote , with a "sh" sound? Many years ago I found some recordings on the internet and I think it had bo…

For what is worth (at least according to my high school teacher) the official pronunciation of x is still /j/; /ks/ is for loan words (extranjerismos and barbarismos).
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