Climate report: Scientists politely urge 'act now, idiots' • Hacker News Board

Re: Climate report: Scientists politely urge 'act now, idiots'

#11

Post by btrettel » Mon, Oct 08, 2018, 4:34 AM UTC

devoply wrote: post #9

btrettel wrote: post #6

I was reading a blog post about problems in academia which said the following in the first paragraph: > There’s a narrative I find kind of troubling, but that unfortunately seems to be growing more common in science. The core idea is that the mere existence of perverse incentives is a valid and sufficient reason to knowingly behave in an antisocial way, just as long as one first acknowledges the existence of those pe…

I guess baby steps might justify your approach. But I think a rethink on the level of global civilization is needed before we can make any sort of realistic progress into an actually sustainable species that might live 1 million or more years. Barring that with our current societal approach and trajectory we may go extinct at any time and the system is generally set up to support such an outcome. Eating different foo…

You're correct that much larger changes are needed. I don't claim my approach would solve the problem, just be one step towards a solution. I don't even know what a complete solution looks like, but I do know the changes I've made personally are likely compatible. And I'm frustrated that very few people are willing to go as far as I have.

A complete solution might be impossible, and we might have to make the least bad decision out of many.

Re: Climate report: Scientists politely urge 'act now, idiots'

#12

Post by danieltillett » Mon, Oct 08, 2018, 4:38 AM UTC

btrettel wrote: post #6

I was reading a blog post about problems in academia which said the following in the first paragraph: > There’s a narrative I find kind of troubling, but that unfortunately seems to be growing more common in science. The core idea is that the mere existence of perverse incentives is a valid and sufficient reason to knowingly behave in an antisocial way, just as long as one first acknowledges the existence of those pe…

Does anyone know how much carbon is released to grow the extra food that you use cycling verses what you would use driving? Food production is very energy intensive and the human body very inefficient.

You can’t effect the amount of carbon released by adopting a low carbon lifestyle when the price of fossil fuels is above the cost of production. All reducing demand at the margin does is lower the marginal price causing an increase in consumption elsewhere in the economy.

Re: Climate report: Scientists politely urge 'act now, idiots'

#13

Post by btrettel » Mon, Oct 08, 2018, 4:42 AM UTC

danieltillett wrote: post #12

btrettel wrote: post #6

I was reading a blog post about problems in academia which said the following in the first paragraph: > There’s a narrative I find kind of troubling, but that unfortunately seems to be growing more common in science. The core idea is that the mere existence of perverse incentives is a valid and sufficient reason to knowingly behave in an antisocial way, just as long as one first acknowledges the existence of those pe…

Does anyone know how much carbon is released to grow the extra food that you use cycling verses what you would use driving? Food production is very energy intensive and the human body very inefficient. You can’t effect the amount of carbon released by adopting a low carbon lifestyle when the price of fossil fuels is above the cost of production. All reducing demand at the margin does is lower the marginal price causi…

https://bicycleuniverse.info/bicycling-wastes-gas/

According to this a "typical" omnivore cyclist produces about 3 times less carbon than a "typical" driver. Vegan and vegetarian are about 4 times less. You can play around with the numbers in the calculator. I think this guy's probably biased towards veganism, but this is what I've seen.

I haven't seen a comparison with motorcycles or electric vehicles, or a comparison that took into account the embodied energy of the vehicles.

Edit: This calculator also assumes equal trip distances between modes of transportation, which is not realistic in my experience. Cyclists tend to have shorter trips. So that's another factor to consider.

> You can’t effect the amount of carbon released by adopting a low carbon lifestyle when the price of fossil fuels is above the cost of production. All reducing demand at the margin does is lower the marginal price causing an increase in consumption elsewhere in the economy.

If that's true, then I guess the goal is to slowly reduce the price. Perhaps cycling is ineffective in terms of carbon emissions. This is okay for me as I find either the cost or physical fitness benefits convincing in isolation.

Re: Climate report: Scientists politely urge 'act now, idiots'

#14

Post by jamesgagan » Mon, Oct 08, 2018, 4:42 AM UTC

Stop eating animals. Governments are slow to act, but switching to a plant based diet is something you can do right now.

Re: Climate report: Scientists politely urge 'act now, idiots'

#15

Post by ekianjo » Mon, Oct 08, 2018, 4:43 AM UTC

NegativeLatency wrote: post #2

It’s really disappointing that the political systems we have don’t encourage long term stewardship of our resources. I don’t see any kind of reform happening in the US until negative consequences are felt by a significant chunk of the population.

> don’t encourage long term stewardship of our resources

Politicians are completely incapable to make a balanced yearly budget, so what do we expect there exactly?

Re: Climate report: Scientists politely urge 'act now, idiots'

#16

Post by camgunz » Mon, Oct 08, 2018, 4:46 AM UTC

It's past time to recognize that this is happening. We're going to experience the fallout of a rapidly warming planet. We need everyone to switch from prevention mode to cure mode. The political will to avoid this just isn't, and never will be there.

Re: Climate report: Scientists politely urge 'act now, idiots'

#17

Post by malloryerik » Mon, Oct 08, 2018, 4:52 AM UTC

NegativeLatency wrote: post #2

It’s really disappointing that the political systems we have don’t encourage long term stewardship of our resources. I don’t see any kind of reform happening in the US until negative consequences are felt by a significant chunk of the population.

You mean until it's too late? With the current wave of nationalist populism, chance of action is shrinking. One horrifying potential feedback loop: lack of serious global action allows continued climate change, creating more refugees, intensifying nationalist populism, creating illiberal democracy, allowing further climate change, and so on.

Re: Climate report: Scientists politely urge 'act now, idiots'

#18

Post by tfehring » Mon, Oct 08, 2018, 4:55 AM UTC

NegativeLatency wrote: post #2

It’s really disappointing that the political systems we have don’t encourage long term stewardship of our resources. I don’t see any kind of reform happening in the US until negative consequences are felt by a significant chunk of the population.

In fact, various US government programs use taxpayer money to shield parts of the population from negative consequences of climate change already. For example, FEMA and the National Flood Insurance Program subsidize property owners in high-flood-risk areas and pass along the immediate economic cost of rising sea levels to everyone else. Fannie and Freddie do the same thing by maintaining lax flood insurance requirements and taking losses (at the margin) when uninsured homeowners end up underwater (figuratively and literally) and walk away.

I do think a revenue-neutral carbon tax as described in [0] could be politically viable in the not-so-distant future. But maybe I'm being too optimistic on that - coal miners seem to be awfully overrepresented in the current political environment.

[0] https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2013/06/28/196355493/econ...

Re: Climate report: Scientists politely urge 'act now, idiots'

#19

Post by camgunz » Mon, Oct 08, 2018, 4:56 AM UTC

ekianjo wrote: post #15

NegativeLatency wrote: post #2

It’s really disappointing that the political systems we have don’t encourage long term stewardship of our resources. I don’t see any kind of reform happening in the US until negative consequences are felt by a significant chunk of the population.

> don’t encourage long term stewardship of our resources Politicians are completely incapable to make a balanced yearly budget, so what do we expect there exactly?

If a major economy ever balances its budget it's making a huge mistake. GDP is driven by investment, the more you can invest the better, and if you aren't you can bet your rivals are.

The balanced budget trope is abused by right wing politicians who want to (literally?) starve the welfare state while subsidizing business and defense. These are the same politicians who deny climate change in order to protect business, and the same politicians whose denial of climate change will destroy poorer, browner countries, and the same politicians who will deny aid and asylum to refugees from those destroyed countries. Don't fall for any of their horseshit, they're basically just corrupt, and incidentally monstrously evil.

Re: Climate report: Scientists politely urge 'act now, idiots'

#20

Post by malloryerik » Mon, Oct 08, 2018, 5:01 AM UTC

jamesgagan wrote: post #14

Stop eating animals. Governments are slow to act, but switching to a plant based diet is something you can do right now.

I don't understand why someone would downvote this, as I thought the norm was to downvote inappropriate and unjustified comments, not comments whose opinion one simply doesn't share especially when as in this case the comment recommends something that is scientific fact: one can reduce one's carbon and methane footprints by abstaining from meat.

If you don't like this comment isn't it better to respond with your reasoning?