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Technology led a hospital to give a patient 38 times his dosage

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Re: Technology led a hospital to give a patient 38 times his dosage

#11
Do you spot the problem?

I saw it right away. That said, I agree with the article that the UI is horrible. It (and many other elements of this story) remind me of interacting with Enterprise software, although in that case people usually aren't in mortal danger because of it.

I probably noticed it more because I saw the first screenshot with a "5" in the same box and thus "160" looks surprising, but even without that first screenshot I would probably have noticed --- the "mg/kg of trimetho" with a search(?) button doesn't make sense. Why would you want to search for that phrase, and why is it cut off like that? Another sign of "Enterpriseness": the two buttons next to it, presumably to set standard doses, have huge amounts of empty space surrounding them, while the inexplicable "search box" is too small to contain its expected contents.

Of course, it could leave the unit [mg versus mg/kg] box blank [...] but few systems do that because of the large number of additional clicks it would generate

That makes no sense. As any science teacher (or at least the good ones) will make it known very very clearly, units are important! I can remember a few incidents[1][2] that occurred because of units confusion.

Had Lucca noticed it, she could have changed it to “mg” with two clicks

Two clicks? Just looking at it, this UI is not obvious at all to me how to even change the units. Do you type in "mg of trimetho..." in the "search box"? After thinking about this for a tiny bit, my proposal would be either radio buttons for each unit, with no default, or two text boxes, one labelled "mg" and the other "mg/kg", where editing one instantly updates the other.

We also needed to address another problem that is not limited to healthcare: overtrust in the technology

Or more generally, a lack of thinking; people who are taught to follow procedures or "best practices" for the "best results" are only going to follow them unquestionably. It's unfortunate that a lot of the time the management above only points to a lack of procedure when it's actually this "overproceduring" which can cause such errors --- the incident where NASA's satellite fell over[3] is one example of this. No one thought to even take a look to see if they had secured it, everyone was too busy executing lists of instructions. If they weren't, and just given a general description of what they needed to accomplish, I'd be pretty sure they would at least check the mounting before trying to turn it on its side.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimli_Glider

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Climate_Orbiter#Cause_of_...

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NOAA-19#Damage_during_manufact...

Re: Technology led a hospital to give a patient 38 times his dosage

#14
post #9
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow the amount of "blind trust and no check" is staggering in the whole chain.

I wonder how common this is? And to think that many are led to believe that the medical system is filled with "professionals" who know what they're doing. I see enough people just blinding trusting the "experts", because they must be right, because they were trained by a university/college for many years. Maybe I'm ranting, but I'm sick of blind faith in a system demonstrated more often than not, to be broken in vari…

It’s funny you belittle the medical profession considering any rando can make a Github account and apply for software jobs with zero training.

No, the medical system isn’t perfect. It’s made up of humans, shocker. Ignoring the cost (in America), it does pretty well most of the time, and I’d rather blindly trust people who study medicine for 12+ years than someone who would otherwise try to drain my blood and balance my “humours”.

Re: Technology led a hospital to give a patient 38 times his dosage

#15
...and it did not even kill him.

Meanwhile that same technology has replaced a reportedly convoluted and error-prone manual process that presumably worked perfectly and never harmed anyone, otherwise surely the authors of the article would have gone into that.

Re: Technology led a hospital to give a patient 38 times his dosage

#16
post #8
post #6

Cliff notes-- New EMR/ordering system. New physician. New nurse. New pharmacy dispensing system. The physician couldn't order 160mg of Bactrim because per kg dosing was required. They mistakenly ordered 160 "mg/kg" (40x the intended dose of 4mg/kg) on the order screen. The UX on the screen was partly to blame-- dosing mg or mg/kg apparently came down to a just a dropbox. With EMR ordering systems I've used, this mist…

> The nurse thought it was strange, but ultimately trusted the dispensing system that said everything was correct. How sad. This does lead me to wonder if said nurse, and other nurses, are properly trained to think for themselves. > Poison control was called, but it didn't seem like they were able to give a clear treatment advice. It gets worse... how come they weren't able to? Poor training? By-the-book training? Sh…

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Re: Technology led a hospital to give a patient 38 times his dosage

#17
post #9
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow the amount of "blind trust and no check" is staggering in the whole chain.

I wonder how common this is? And to think that many are led to believe that the medical system is filled with "professionals" who know what they're doing. I see enough people just blinding trusting the "experts", because they must be right, because they were trained by a university/college for many years. Maybe I'm ranting, but I'm sick of blind faith in a system demonstrated more often than not, to be broken in vari…

Medication errors are common enough that they happen on a regular basis in any reasonably sized hospital. They happen both with or without electronic systems.

The majority of errors are caught — by the prescriber, by the pharmacist, or by the nurse administering — but a few fall through the cracks. Order of magnitude errors, where the dose is x10^n the intended dose are some of the more common errors.

We have a lot of safeguards — for example packaging medications in dosages that are likely to be safe for a single dose — but there are also some factors that make errors more likely, such as paediatrics (who need smaller does), geriatrics (who often have many different medications which can interact), and critical care (where things move fast, and big doses might be needed).

I'm a student doctor, and hopefully you believe me that medicine is hard. Electronic systems might help with some of the hard bits, but they're often a hindrance, or pose their own hidden dangers. As a software engineer I know that a lot of medical software is far from fit for purpose.

Re: Technology led a hospital to give a patient 38 times his dosage

#18
There's a book from the 70s called Technology and Social Shock that my father, a research scientist at NIST (one of the US national labs), gifted to me recently. Given this crazy Internet rabbit hole that I've made the big thing in my life, I think the hidden message is to be careful and to take the time to consider the negative consequences of the "cool stuff" we're working on and giving out to the world on this new platform of the Web.

There are some really scary stories in there, and I think that it remains a timely exposé of what happens when you aren't careful, given the accelerating rate of change that we're seeing in the development, deployment, and "hands-off" attitude that we're taking broadly across so many different contexts.

Some of the most egregious examples include the use of thalidomide, which ended up being teratogenic (babies without arms and legs), along with the "cool tech!" of X-ray shoe-fitting machines that ended up causing hundreds of thousands of cases of cancer and other diseases, all in the name of advancement (read: profit) by participants. Whats really great is the book was written before the advent of computers, so it provides very useful perspective into matters that should be deeply concerning to those who are in positions that enable the rapid deployment of wide-spread technology.

I can't recommend it enough.

Re: Technology led a hospital to give a patient 38 times his dosage

#19

...and it did not even kill him. Meanwhile that same technology has replaced a reportedly convoluted and error-prone manual process that presumably worked perfectly and never harmed anyone, otherwise surely the authors of the article would have gone into that.

TFA does mention that, to be fair:

> [...] But even in simplified form, you can see why the old system was hugely error-prone. A study from the pen-and-paper era showed that 1 in 15 hospitalized patients suffered from an adverse drug event, often due to medication errors. A 2010 study (using data collected during the pre-digital era) estimated the yearly cost of medication errors in U.S. hospitals at $21 billion.

> Those of us who worked in this Rube Goldberg system — and witnessed the harms it caused — anxiously awaited the arrival of computers to plug its leaks. [...]

Re: Technology led a hospital to give a patient 38 times his dosage

#20
post #9
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow the amount of "blind trust and no check" is staggering in the whole chain.

I wonder how common this is? And to think that many are led to believe that the medical system is filled with "professionals" who know what they're doing. I see enough people just blinding trusting the "experts", because they must be right, because they were trained by a university/college for many years. Maybe I'm ranting, but I'm sick of blind faith in a system demonstrated more often than not, to be broken in vari…

I suspect it's pretty common. I recently corrected a prescription / dosing issue with my 89-year-old grandfather that was largely the result of the people involved not sanity-checking what was going on.

I'm still of the opinion that most people are better off letting doctors and nurses do their job than trying to manage their own health based on stuff they've read on the internet. There's a lot of bad information out there and sorting through it takes practice. You have to enjoy reading medical literature more than blogs.

The specifics: he's in a home hospice care situation as a result of severe aortic stenosis along with some complicating factors. Hospice is designed to provide "last two weeks" care for their patients, and they have a specific drug cocktail for that, but he's been on home hospice for over a year now because his body just isn't done yet, and there is no death-with-dignity law in his state (nor available providers in the neighboring state).

The drug cocktail is an opioid, usually morphine, along with a benzodiazepine, usually Lorazepam (generic Ativan). Taken together, they help relieve anxiety, reduce respiratory distress, and lower blood pressure. That last is important, because the morphine/benzo cocktail is specifically cautioned against in medical literature for elderly patients who are still ambulatory, because it creates a fall risk. They go to stand up to use the bathroom, and there isn't sufficient blood pressure to stay conscious, and they pass out and hit the floor, hard.

And that's exactly what happened to him. The third time, it hospitalized him and, because his speech had been slurred and his consciousness had been altered before the fall, I suspected his medication wasn't right. I went out there and carefully went through everything, and sure 'nuff, that's what it was.

The doctors just prescribed whatever hospice asked for, and hospice just asked for their usual recipe. It took an annoying number of meetings with staff before a younger visiting physician dropped in to one of the meetings and followed up with the literature I was citing. The next morning they started reducing his dosages and he began recovering, including getting his mental faculties back.

He's been back home for a couple of months now, doing well.

Physicians aren't magic. But, they work in a field that's totally alien to most of us here on HN, and trying to navigate the field as a layman can easily lead you into some pretty woo-woo nonsense. Trust, but verify.

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