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Why didn’t people in finance pay attention to Benoit Mandelbrot?

blogs.reuters.com

11–20 of 52 posts

Re: Why didn’t people in finance pay attention to Benoit Mandelbrot?

#11

I really wouldn't take an article seriously if it partially blames the '87 stock market crash on Black-Scholes (basic model for pricing European options). That makes literally zero sense.

No kidding, blaming the math for the crash is like rearranging deck chairs on the titanic.

"Our models told us our plans were unsinkable so we went right ahead into the icebergs"

Re: Why didn’t people in finance pay attention to Benoit Mandelbrot?

#12
post #6

The most important take-away from Mandelbrot / fractals as it applies to finance should be the realization that fractals can represent better ways of presenting or simulating financial data than brownian motion / random walks / Black-Scholes. As to why this hasn't been accepted more broadly - well, as the article briefly mentions, there are powerful individual incentives for people to continue to play along in the ch…

Models with constant-volatility random walks aren't favoured over "fractal" models because of some elaborate charade or flawed incentives. They are used because they are tractable models that can be used to make predictions. Fractal models are not.

Financial models are just like any other engineering tools. They approximate reality so they can be useful; but violate their assumptions or use them outside of their intended purpose, and they're likely to blow up in your face.

Re: Why didn’t people in finance pay attention to Benoit Mandelbrot?

#14
My suggestion why people didn't pay attention? He had no real theory. I've read a couple of his books, here is the general formula: "Look, gaussian's don't fit the market well. Aha, I've made a graph that looks visually correct!"

Now, it's absolutely true that gaussian's don't fit the market well - they only work sometimes. The thing is, everyone knows this, and tacks on additional features to explain the other phenomena. For instance, one might assume movements are normally distributed, except for short term spikes followed by high volatility. A good risk manager will throw non-gaussian volatility at a model during backtesting.

Mandelbrot's fractal story just didn't add much. The black scholes story has some convincing theoretical background (it assumes an "evil" market out to get you [1]). It misses things, but many of the things it misses can be added in, in a more or less convincing way - e.g., I understand the black scholes part of my model handles small movements, and the stochastic jumps handle the big ones.

All Mandelbrot's model gives me is a graph that kind of looks right - it doesn't give me any understanding.

[1] This is not the textbook description, but Bob Kohn convinced me this is the best way to think of it.

Re: Why didn’t people in finance pay attention to Benoit Mandelbrot?

#15
post #9

Because what his theory boils down to is that you can't predict the market. Pointing out that the market is describable by a self-similar fractal froth is an interesting thought, but it basically means that if true, you can't predict anything with any effectiveness. (Oh, you might be able to use that idea to tune yourself up something that might work slightly better on a small time scale, but as the market has sped u…

I think the standard model also tells you that you cannot do much, no ? The efficient market hypothesis from Fama somewhat boils down to the fact that you cannot beat the market unless you have information that other don't have.

Another reason for the "conventional" methods success seems to be related to their empirical testability, at a certain period of time. The best article on Mandelbrot and the link with finance I have seen so far is on econoclaste (http://econoclaste.org.free.fr/dotclear/index.php/?2010/10/1...), but in French unfortunately.

Re: Why didn’t people in finance pay attention to Benoit Mandelbrot?

#16
post #6

The most important take-away from Mandelbrot / fractals as it applies to finance should be the realization that fractals can represent better ways of presenting or simulating financial data than brownian motion / random walks / Black-Scholes. As to why this hasn't been accepted more broadly - well, as the article briefly mentions, there are powerful individual incentives for people to continue to play along in the ch…

...but whether from LTCM, or more recently seeing so many CDS etc blow up,...

I'm confused - how do CDS (did you mean CDOs) blowing up prove that a fractal model of the market is better than the standard Black Scholes + assorted tweaks model?

Re: Why didn’t people in finance pay attention to Benoit Mandelbrot?

#17
Found this quote interesting.

---

Black-Scholes and the many financial risk models that have evolved from it (including Felix’s friend the Gaussian copula) are all about volatility being measurable and predictable. “When Black-Scholes came out, I said, ‘Well, it won’t last,’” he told me in 2005. “‘I’ll come back when it’s gone.’”

Re: Why didn’t people in finance pay attention to Benoit Mandelbrot?

#18
post #9

Because what his theory boils down to is that you can't predict the market. Pointing out that the market is describable by a self-similar fractal froth is an interesting thought, but it basically means that if true, you can't predict anything with any effectiveness. (Oh, you might be able to use that idea to tune yourself up something that might work slightly better on a small time scale, but as the market has sped u…

The determining factor in economics varies as a function of the problems and matters connected to what is inside people themselves. "Because the consciousness that moves us is making a world."

A simple example to demonstrate that it is possible to predict things about this society to a nontrivial degree, is the products and activities of Apple Inc. They have great marketing foresight. But besides that, it sounds like they were building mobile devices for a long time before the touch-based smartphone market really took off in the last few years, enough to get it right. I'm not an Apple employee but I've been using an apple for ages. It seems to me like the people at the group had to very carefully understand what kind of questions there are in building something like that and making it work best. Granted, Apple has lots of problems, but what I'm trying to point out here is that by funding and working on the problems in order to get it right, is usually going to result in the best products which if able to be made available widely enough will become very popular for a period of time. As a result, objective-C has come into use much more, and jobs were opened.

The question of how to see and predict the course of the world lies in understanding what exists in front of us.

Products that were developed by copying others or with ignorance of the problems in the matter, will eventually exhaust themselves. On the other hand, products from a company that had see what exists in their life and generates work matching what they see in problems, assuming they are adept at protecting themselves in business, will be able to be more successful. Even people who don't have any university education can be successful through their knowledge of what is. So we have to be able to comprehend human consciousness in order to understand how an economy will move. Luckily, to understand consciousness is simple, if you are really willing to know. Consciousness is changed for better or worse by what happened to it.

In this society where people have undertaken large-scale industrial production on Earth, people in presently affluent circumstances can afford to use cell phones more profitably than without them. But in a different society, the problem that makes the economy exist may be different but the principle through which it exists remains the same. Things are either getting better or worse through what is in the principle.

This principle isn't precisely comprehended in those economists' education and that results in lots of thinking that turn out to be misguided. But things in reality are very simple. It's just that we need to search what kind of problems we have inside of us in order to know what they are like.

Re: Why didn’t people in finance pay attention to Benoit Mandelbrot?

#19
They didn't ignore him. Fat tails and jumps are just really hard to estimate in finance. More interesting is that the unstated premise for these link-bait titles (aka great headlines) is "If only they had listened to Mandelbrot, we could have avoided all these problems."

It is nearly absurd on the face of it, but worth a comment. Like Louis Bachelier's description of stochastic processes in 1900, mathematicians like Mandelbrot have been inspired by financial time series to develop formal descriptions of the phenomena. Sometimes, this leads to a marginally deeper understanding of the object of study.

Regardless, mathematicians and other scientists have little interest in developing prescriptions that would help control or reduce volatility. Most observers seem to think that the amount of financial volatility is way too high in comparison to the underlying economic realities. A few, like Fisher Black, have had the opposite opinion and suggested that the prospects of the underlying economy (including human capital) are actually hugely volatile. Virtually all take the structure of markets as a given and assume they are low-friction and generally structured well.

My own opinion is that volatility is mainly a function of information starvation in the market. Just look at the poor quality of financial accounting, auditing, and the cherished secrecy of large risky positions and you can see possible areas to unlock information flow that would allow markets to do a better job of tracking "true" value and ignoring chaff generated by the act of trading.

Re: Why didn’t people in finance pay attention to Benoit Mandelbrot?

#20
post #9

Because what his theory boils down to is that you can't predict the market. Pointing out that the market is describable by a self-similar fractal froth is an interesting thought, but it basically means that if true, you can't predict anything with any effectiveness. (Oh, you might be able to use that idea to tune yourself up something that might work slightly better on a small time scale, but as the market has sped u…

The determining factor in economics varies as a function of the problems and matters connected to what is inside people themselves. "Because the consciousness that moves us is making a world." A simple example to demonstrate that it is possible to predict things about this society to a nontrivial degree, is the products and activities of Apple Inc. They have great marketing foresight. But besides that, it sounds like…

You are right that predicting trends is not that hard. When it comes to financial prices the issue is that you are effectively predicting small changes in trends, plus a lot of noise added on by trading activity itself. Much harder.
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