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Tolstoy’s ‘Resurrection’ is strikingly similar to how we treat prisoners today

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Re: Tolstoy’s ‘Resurrection’ is strikingly similar to how we treat prisoners today

#11

Post by gnulinux »

themodelplumber wrote: post #7
jordigh wrote: post #2

> No Spoilers. This is a weird fixation we have in the modern world. Is anyone really thinking that by knowing the plot of a 120-year-old novel their experience of that novel could totally be ruined?

I don't see why the age of the novel factors in. Reading is a subjective experience with a variety of modes and conditions, so if for example the subject is working their way through old novels as a hobby then yes, I really can see why it'd be just as annoying to have the 120 year old plot spoiled as it would be for a brand new movie. Still, I think "spoiler alert" is a lot better in cases like these than "no spoiler…

One should never read literature for it's plot. Learning the plot of a literature book should have no affect in its enjoyment. This is similar to enjoying a painting for it's plot: "oh so a man is looking up, it's night time, there are a lot of stars, a large tree covering left side of the canvas, the man has some sort vision problem and stars look really huge and yellow. Then there is moon, shining yellow. Below the sky one can see a small city blending with the dusk of the night." Is this an equivalent experience?

Re: Tolstoy’s ‘Resurrection’ is strikingly similar to how we treat prisoners today

#12

Post by lixtra »

testvox wrote: post #6

> But what do we do? […] We do not merely do nothing to get rid of the conditions in which such people are born – we actually encourage the institutions which produce them. We all know what these institutions are: the mills, the factories, the workshops, the inns, the pot-houses, the brothels. And far from wiping out establishments of this sort – considering them necessary, we encourage and regulate them. Would the w…

My understanding of the US prisons was that many people with mental issues end up there instead of proper mental health care [1].

I can imagine that people with mental issues are also more likely to end up in inns and brothels. These people remain problematic after closing those locations. Even more so with factories as you already pointed out.

[1] https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/saving-normal/201303...

Re: Tolstoy’s ‘Resurrection’ is strikingly similar to how we treat prisoners today

#13

Post by ars »

gnulinux wrote: post #11
themodelplumber wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see why the age of the novel factors in. Reading is a subjective experience with a variety of modes and conditions, so if for example the subject is working their way through old novels as a hobby then yes, I really can see why it'd be just as annoying to have the 120 year old plot spoiled as it would be for a brand new movie. Still, I think "spoiler alert" is a lot better in cases like these than "no spoiler…

One should never read literature for it's plot. Learning the plot of a literature book should have no affect in its enjoyment. This is similar to enjoying a painting for it's plot: "oh so a man is looking up, it's night time, there are a lot of stars, a large tree covering left side of the canvas, the man has some sort vision problem and stars look really huge and yellow. Then there is moon, shining yellow. Below the…

> One should never read literature for it's plot.

Says who? What if I want to read literature for the plot? What if the excitement of what's going to happen is what I care about, and the characters are just a side thing?

What if some days I want to read for plot, other days I want world building, other days I want character development?

> Learning the plot of a literature book should have no affect in its enjoyment.

And if it does affect it? Should we tell people not to read that book?

Re: Tolstoy’s ‘Resurrection’ is strikingly similar to how we treat prisoners today

#14

Post by sdrothrock »

gnulinux wrote: post #11
themodelplumber wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see why the age of the novel factors in. Reading is a subjective experience with a variety of modes and conditions, so if for example the subject is working their way through old novels as a hobby then yes, I really can see why it'd be just as annoying to have the 120 year old plot spoiled as it would be for a brand new movie. Still, I think "spoiler alert" is a lot better in cases like these than "no spoiler…

One should never read literature for it's plot. Learning the plot of a literature book should have no affect in its enjoyment. This is similar to enjoying a painting for it's plot: "oh so a man is looking up, it's night time, there are a lot of stars, a large tree covering left side of the canvas, the man has some sort vision problem and stars look really huge and yellow. Then there is moon, shining yellow. Below the…

As an avid reader, I don't think plot is unimportant in the enjoyment of books.

In fact, foreknowledge of plot and detail color your experience of reading the book such that successive rereads each have a different character in many cases.

Imagine the first time you read a book like The Time Traveler's Wife, Life of Pi, Never Let Me Go, A Tale of Two Cities, The Count of Monte Cristo, or The Boy in the Striped Pajamas. Now, imagine the second time reading through any of those books; the experience will be greatly changed by the knowledge and anticipation of what you know is coming.

Some people may not think that change in experience is important, but some definitely will. I don't think there's any reason to look down on either group, nor to look down on people who chose to respect the latter.

Re: Tolstoy’s ‘Resurrection’ is strikingly similar to how we treat prisoners today

#15

Post by freshhawk »

testvox wrote: post #6

> But what do we do? […] We do not merely do nothing to get rid of the conditions in which such people are born – we actually encourage the institutions which produce them. We all know what these institutions are: the mills, the factories, the workshops, the inns, the pot-houses, the brothels. And far from wiping out establishments of this sort – considering them necessary, we encourage and regulate them. Would the w…

The factories and inns you are thinking of are quite different from the ones Tolstoy was talking about.

Re: Tolstoy’s ‘Resurrection’ is strikingly similar to how we treat prisoners today

#16

Post by jack9 »

jordigh wrote: post #2

> No Spoilers. This is a weird fixation we have in the modern world. Is anyone really thinking that by knowing the plot of a 120-year-old novel their experience of that novel could totally be ruined?

More importantly, the overall story is secondary to the intricate written interpretation, reasoning and connected themes that make the plot meaningful at all. That's integral to Tolstoy, as an author.

Re: Tolstoy’s ‘Resurrection’ is strikingly similar to how we treat prisoners today

#17

Post by brownbat »

lixtra wrote: post #12
testvox wrote: post #6

> But what do we do? […] We do not merely do nothing to get rid of the conditions in which such people are born – we actually encourage the institutions which produce them. We all know what these institutions are: the mills, the factories, the workshops, the inns, the pot-houses, the brothels. And far from wiping out establishments of this sort – considering them necessary, we encourage and regulate them. Would the w…

My understanding of the US prisons was that many people with mental issues end up there instead of proper mental health care [1]. I can imagine that people with mental issues are also more likely to end up in inns and brothels. These people remain problematic after closing those locations. Even more so with factories as you already pointed out. [1] https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/saving-normal/201303...

We had a case once where a guy kept breaking into a local business. Didn't take anything, just broke the door or a window and picked things up and moved them around a bit then left. Did it repeatedly despite a series of warnings and discussions.

Guy was not malicious, just not mentally healthy. Doing nothing meant the business would continue to get harassed.

Judge and prosecutor and defense attorney had a long conference about how none of the options available were any good.

Mental health courts are one approach being tried out in a few jurisdictions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_health_court

Basically like a plea agreement with conditions to enter into a community based support program or some kind of treatment program.

They aren't without criticisms, but they provide a tool to deal with these messed up situations the criminal justice constantly gets stuck with.

Re: Tolstoy’s ‘Resurrection’ is strikingly similar to how we treat prisoners today

#18

Post by fipple »

candiodari wrote: post #9
saurik wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How could the age of the novel affect the answer to that question?

Many people think that we are in a totally unprecendented time in history. So you "don't get to" use history to criticize their great and unique ideas ... that ... mostly are not entirely unprecedented or original. Just like they did in the 60s ... and the 20s ... and during the French revolution ... and 100 times before and in between those ... Now don't get me wrong, there is something new everytime. Like pictures…

There is definitely something deeply weird and unprecedented about a world where the richest countries are having the fewest children.

Re: Tolstoy’s ‘Resurrection’ is strikingly similar to how we treat prisoners today

#19

Post by fipple »

gnulinux wrote: post #11
themodelplumber wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see why the age of the novel factors in. Reading is a subjective experience with a variety of modes and conditions, so if for example the subject is working their way through old novels as a hobby then yes, I really can see why it'd be just as annoying to have the 120 year old plot spoiled as it would be for a brand new movie. Still, I think "spoiler alert" is a lot better in cases like these than "no spoiler…

One should never read literature for it's plot. Learning the plot of a literature book should have no affect in its enjoyment. This is similar to enjoying a painting for it's plot: "oh so a man is looking up, it's night time, there are a lot of stars, a large tree covering left side of the canvas, the man has some sort vision problem and stars look really huge and yellow. Then there is moon, shining yellow. Below the…

I'm going to leave this Nabokov quote here for the benefit of others:

"Incidentally, I use the word reader very loosely. Curiously enough, one cannot read a book: one can only reread it. A good reader, a major reader, an active and creative reader is a rereader. And I shall tell you why. When we read a book for the first time the very process of laboriously moving our eyes from left to right, line after line, page after page, this complicated physical work upon the book, the very process of learning in terms of space and time what the book is about, this stands between us and artistic appreciation. When we look at a painting we do not have to move our eyes in a special way even if, as in a book, the picture contains elements of depth and development. The element of time does not really enter in a first contact with a painting. In reading a book, we must have time to acquaint ourselves with it. We have no physical organ (as we have the eye in regard to a painting) that takes in the whole picture and then can enjoy its details. But at a second, or third, or fourth reading we do, in a sense, behave towards a book as we do towards a painting. However, let us not confuse the physical eye, that monstrous masterpiece of evolution, with the mind, an even more monstrous achievement. A book, no matter what it is—a work of fiction or a work of science (the boundary line between the two is not as clear as is generally believed)—a book of fiction appeals first of all to the mind. The mind, the brain, the top of the tingling spine, is, or should be, the only instrument used upon a book."

Re: Tolstoy’s ‘Resurrection’ is strikingly similar to how we treat prisoners today

#20

Post by toomanybeersies »

brownbat wrote: post #17
lixtra wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding of the US prisons was that many people with mental issues end up there instead of proper mental health care [1]. I can imagine that people with mental issues are also more likely to end up in inns and brothels. These people remain problematic after closing those locations. Even more so with factories as you already pointed out. [1] https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/saving-normal/201303...

We had a case once where a guy kept breaking into a local business. Didn't take anything, just broke the door or a window and picked things up and moved them around a bit then left. Did it repeatedly despite a series of warnings and discussions. Guy was not malicious, just not mentally healthy. Doing nothing meant the business would continue to get harassed. Judge and prosecutor and defense attorney had a long confer…

So what was the end result? Did they send the guy to prison or try and get him the help he needed?
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