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Cisco ‘secured visas for foreign workers instead of hiring US citizens’: report

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Re: Cisco ‘secured visas for foreign workers instead of hiring US citizens’: report

#11
post #6

Securing visas for (and hiring) foreign workers instead of citizens, in itself, is not criminal or wrong -- and absolutely the thing to do when the foreign employees bring skills not available locally. The problem is when this process is used to save on salaries, favoring foreigners over locals on the basis of being able to pay foreigners less only. The article alleges (without evidence!†) that this is what happened.…

> favoring foreigners over locals on the basis of being able to pay foreigners less only

Hypothetically, if you were a Machiavellian hiring manager:

You would also prefer a foreigner on a visa because they would have less freedom to leave the company than an equally paid employee who wasn't worried that quitting a job would risk being forced out of the country.

Also this would make the foreigner more worried about the consequences of being terminated for unsatisfactory performance.

Re: Cisco ‘secured visas for foreign workers instead of hiring US citizens’: report

#12
post #6

Securing visas for (and hiring) foreign workers instead of citizens, in itself, is not criminal or wrong -- and absolutely the thing to do when the foreign employees bring skills not available locally. The problem is when this process is used to save on salaries, favoring foreigners over locals on the basis of being able to pay foreigners less only. The article alleges (without evidence!†) that this is what happened.…

You are right but this sort of news reporting is usually cover fire for the current administration and arbitrary functioning of USCICS. Even paying less is not a problem for visa holders as long as it is higher than the wage floors set by Labour department. I believe for H1b it is like 80K or so.

All companies I know pay less to visa holders for following reasons and even lesser if you are Indian or Chinese national.

- They have to spend resources worth $10K for visa transfer. It is higher for visa petition. - they have to spend addtional $3k per year for renewals. - Processing an EB2/EB3 petition costs around $30k for the company in resources.

I think it is unfair to even expect that Cisco must match penny to penny the salary.

Re: Cisco ‘secured visas for foreign workers instead of hiring US citizens’: report

#13
post #6

Securing visas for (and hiring) foreign workers instead of citizens, in itself, is not criminal or wrong -- and absolutely the thing to do when the foreign employees bring skills not available locally. The problem is when this process is used to save on salaries, favoring foreigners over locals on the basis of being able to pay foreigners less only. The article alleges (without evidence!†) that this is what happened.…

What software skills are "not available locally" in Silicon Valley that need to be imported from places like India? No, these are available locally, just not at the rate Cisco wanted to pay.

I've worked at many tech cos and this is very common. Companies will post jobs and even sometimes send email blasts to "help find us an Android developer!" but it's all for show in case they get audited -- they have to prove they 'tried' to hire locally before importing labor.

EDIT: Just saw your comment about $130k being a 'good salary.' HA! Not in Bay Area, not for a senior hire. That's a good salary for an engineer that's a few years out of college. Hardly competitive for anything beyond that.

Re: Cisco ‘secured visas for foreign workers instead of hiring US citizens’: report

#14

5 out of the 6 people who interviewed me at Amazon had foreign accents. Do Americans just not go into tech anymore? Are there not enough? Do they ask for too much money? Are they too lazy? Are they not smart enough? I don't understand it. I heard they'd been hiring like crazy - I'm a pretty good software engineer but I didn't get the job. Maybe I told them I want too much money. No kids, no land, half of my wages go…

There are not enough Young Americans anymore. That sound weird but true. Also a college grad fresh out of college can not compete with the huge supply of experienced and better Indian/Chinese/Korean engineers.

Re: Cisco ‘secured visas for foreign workers instead of hiring US citizens’: report

#15

5 out of the 6 people who interviewed me at Amazon had foreign accents. Do Americans just not go into tech anymore? Are there not enough? Do they ask for too much money? Are they too lazy? Are they not smart enough? I don't understand it. I heard they'd been hiring like crazy - I'm a pretty good software engineer but I didn't get the job. Maybe I told them I want too much money. No kids, no land, half of my wages go…

There are not enough Young Americans anymore. That sound weird but true. Also a college grad fresh out of college can not compete with the huge supply of experienced and better Indian/Chinese/Korean engineers.

I’ve worked with multiple American and Canadian interns who were far more technically proficient and productive than senior level foreign labor.

Everyone knows that people subconsciously prefer to hire people who look like them. This affects Asians too. It’s self evident that organizations with Asian hiring managers prefer to hire their own people. I know this won’t sit well with some people here, but it’s observably true nonetheless.

Re: Cisco ‘secured visas for foreign workers instead of hiring US citizens’: report

#16
post #6

Securing visas for (and hiring) foreign workers instead of citizens, in itself, is not criminal or wrong -- and absolutely the thing to do when the foreign employees bring skills not available locally. The problem is when this process is used to save on salaries, favoring foreigners over locals on the basis of being able to pay foreigners less only. The article alleges (without evidence!†) that this is what happened.…

> Securing visas for (and hiring) foreign workers instead of citizens, in itself, is not criminal or wrong -- and absolutely the thing to do when the foreign employees bring skills not available locally.

It is criminal if you use and H1B and claim the talent is not available in the US. http://www.dol.gov/whd/immigration/h1b.htm

"The intent of the H-1B provisions is to help employers who cannot otherwise obtain needed business skills and abilities from the U.S. workforce by authorizing the temporary employment of qualified individuals who are not otherwise authorized to work in the United States."

Re: Cisco ‘secured visas for foreign workers instead of hiring US citizens’: report

#17

5 out of the 6 people who interviewed me at Amazon had foreign accents. Do Americans just not go into tech anymore? Are there not enough? Do they ask for too much money? Are they too lazy? Are they not smart enough? I don't understand it. I heard they'd been hiring like crazy - I'm a pretty good software engineer but I didn't get the job. Maybe I told them I want too much money. No kids, no land, half of my wages go…

There are not enough Young Americans anymore. That sound weird but true. Also a college grad fresh out of college can not compete with the huge supply of experienced and better Indian/Chinese/Korean engineers.

> Also a college grad fresh out of college can not compete with the huge supply of experienced and better Indian/Chinese/Korean engineers.

Yes, my skills are diluted when competing against billions of people, rather than millions.

Re: Cisco ‘secured visas for foreign workers instead of hiring US citizens’: report

#18
post #6

Securing visas for (and hiring) foreign workers instead of citizens, in itself, is not criminal or wrong -- and absolutely the thing to do when the foreign employees bring skills not available locally. The problem is when this process is used to save on salaries, favoring foreigners over locals on the basis of being able to pay foreigners less only. The article alleges (without evidence!†) that this is what happened.…

Allowing the exploitation of foreign workers like that is bad for your country too. I'm Canadian, but some of our big companies use a similar strategy. Imagine being the foreign worker. You know you're being taken advantage of, many locals dislike you, the benefit is temporary, and it's endorsed by the government. It's a smart deal in terms of personal gain, but you're not stupid so you know you're being taken advantage of. That kind of treatment sows resentment and that's not good for the way people perceive your country.

Consider an alternative where companies hire foreigners for their superior skills. Those people will be respected because of their talent. People value being respected and, combined with an option to immigrate (if they want it), it's possible to build good will around the world. Instead of people teaching their children "America took advantage of me, but I benefited enough to make it worth it for our family", it can be be "America gave me a great opportunity."

People know when they're being cheated and if kids grow up watching their parents get cheated by a form of government endorsed exploitation they'll respect your country less and be more susceptible to propaganda and radicalization. IMO, exploiting foreign workers is bad foreign policy and has a negative effect on the long term reputation of a country.

Shame on all the companies that do this. It's bad for the foreigners, it's bad for the locals, and, worst of all, it's bad for future generations that grow up resenting each other based on nationality.

Every time you see an article like this, make sure people understand that foreigners aren't taking our jobs. We're all being mistreated and exploited by the same greedy companies.

Re: Cisco ‘secured visas for foreign workers instead of hiring US citizens’: report

#19
post #6

Securing visas for (and hiring) foreign workers instead of citizens, in itself, is not criminal or wrong -- and absolutely the thing to do when the foreign employees bring skills not available locally. The problem is when this process is used to save on salaries, favoring foreigners over locals on the basis of being able to pay foreigners less only. The article alleges (without evidence!†) that this is what happened.…

You are right but this sort of news reporting is usually cover fire for the current administration and arbitrary functioning of USCICS. Even paying less is not a problem for visa holders as long as it is higher than the wage floors set by Labour department. I believe for H1b it is like 80K or so. All companies I know pay less to visa holders for following reasons and even lesser if you are Indian or Chinese national.…

$30k sounds significantly higher than my experience, do you have any background on that? Even for a small company, we paid $5-10k to process applications and sponsor a green card IIRC.

Cisco would also have the scale to significantly cut attorney costs.

Re: Cisco ‘secured visas for foreign workers instead of hiring US citizens’: report

#20
post #6

Securing visas for (and hiring) foreign workers instead of citizens, in itself, is not criminal or wrong -- and absolutely the thing to do when the foreign employees bring skills not available locally. The problem is when this process is used to save on salaries, favoring foreigners over locals on the basis of being able to pay foreigners less only. The article alleges (without evidence!†) that this is what happened.…

> favoring foreigners over locals on the basis of being able to pay foreigners less only Hypothetically, if you were a Machiavellian hiring manager: You would also prefer a foreigner on a visa because they would have less freedom to leave the company than an equally paid employee who wasn't worried that quitting a job would risk being forced out of the country. Also this would make the foreigner more worried about th…

Quite unfortunately, your Machiavellian hiring manager is simply the hiring manager, from what I heard about companies like Infosys.

It's hard to imagine this not being abused. Even in academia, where the H1B - green card process is pretty much a railroad. I've seen a department drag out the green card process over the span of years - out of fears that the professor in question might just jump ship and ditch the rat nest as soon as they get the green card (that was my best understanding of the situation).

Good point, and too nuanced for the article, alas.

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