Who needs democracy when you have data? • Hacker News Board

Re: Who needs democracy when you have data?

#11

Post by fcarraldo » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 3:41 PM UTC

lumberjack wrote: post #6

coldtea wrote: post #3

> It helps that a tumultuous couple of years in the world’s democracies have made the Chinese political elite feel increasingly justified in shutting out voters. Developments such as Donald Trump’s election, Brexit, the rise of far-right parties across Europe, and Rodrigo Duterte’s reign of terror in the Philippines underscore what many critics see as the problems inherent in democracy, especially populism, instabili…

Trump and BREXIT: the blame is put entirely on the electorate, but in both cases it was the elites who gave the electorate the opportunity to make a choice and it was the elites who provided the selection of possible choices. Think of the many contemporary political issues on which the elites refuse to provide such a choice and insist on governing as they please. This is the same as when the media (the voice of the s…

You're correct, and it's unfortunate that we're both being downvoted for pointing out the flaws in this kind of thinking.

Brexit was a false choice foisted upon the people by wealthy special interest groups that used falsehoods[0][1] and illegal tactics[2] to mislead the people [3][4] into voting for something they didn't fully understand [5]

[0] https://www.independent.co.uk/infact/brexit-second-referendu...

[1] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/final-say-bre...

[2] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/vote-leave-ca...

[3] https://www.npr.org/2018/05/30/615388562/fishermen-say-they-...

[4] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-voter...

[5] https://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2016/06/24/48...

Re: Who needs democracy when you have data?

#12

Post by hkai » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 3:47 PM UTC

efields wrote: post #2

The people inside the democracy. They need democracy.

Well, they believe they don't. My compatriots from my two home nations, Russia and China, usually defend the authoritarian policy thanks to years of soft propaganda and opinion guiding.

"Western countries have problems too, and did you see America, this is what democracy leads to."

You can see that on HN, too.

Re: Who needs democracy when you have data?

#13

Post by TruthSHIFT » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 3:47 PM UTC

fcarraldo wrote: post #5

coldtea wrote: post #3

> It helps that a tumultuous couple of years in the world’s democracies have made the Chinese political elite feel increasingly justified in shutting out voters. Developments such as Donald Trump’s election, Brexit, the rise of far-right parties across Europe, and Rodrigo Duterte’s reign of terror in the Philippines underscore what many critics see as the problems inherent in democracy, especially populism, instabili…

If Trump, Brexit and Duterte are what the people want, perhaps we live in societies that are incapable of self-governance. I'm no fan of centrist neoliberal politics, but regimes and decisions which destabilize economies, marginalize minorities and villainize immigrants are clearly not a better alternative.

Having an election manipulated by the Russian government does not count as "self-governance."

Re: Who needs democracy when you have data?

#14

Post by close04 » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 3:49 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #3

> It helps that a tumultuous couple of years in the world’s democracies have made the Chinese political elite feel increasingly justified in shutting out voters. Developments such as Donald Trump’s election, Brexit, the rise of far-right parties across Europe, and Rodrigo Duterte’s reign of terror in the Philippines underscore what many critics see as the problems inherent in democracy, especially populism, instabili…

> what people want

If they gave the people what they wanted then everybody (and nobody?) would be elites, right? Or maybe the majority of people just want those 10% to be rich. And since Brexit was brought up, can you think of any huge promise that was made in order to get the vote but won't be kept? Must be that what people really want is to be lied to. [1]

Today's democracy functions as a 2 step process: the campaign where people hear what they want to hear (and usually they're even told what they want) and the term where they're getting something else. Or getting what they want to a degree. You vote promises, not results.

Democracy may be the best system we have but it's far from good because while the theory is stellar, the practical application is less so.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cA3XTYfzd1I

Re: Who needs democracy when you have data?

#15

Post by fcarraldo » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 3:49 PM UTC

pc86 wrote: post #9

fcarraldo wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Trump, Brexit and Duterte are what the people want, perhaps we live in societies that are incapable of self-governance. I'm no fan of centrist neoliberal politics, but regimes and decisions which destabilize economies, marginalize minorities and villainize immigrants are clearly not a better alternative.

I would love to hear what in the world you think "centrist neoliberal politics" means.

I'm not sure what you mean. Neoliberalism is a centrist philosophy on the U.S. political spectrum, and has been the dominant political ideology in the US and the UK for the past three decades. [0][1][2]

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism

[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17436985

[2] https://theconversation.com/what-exactly-is-neoliberalism-84...

Re: Who needs democracy when you have data?

#16

Post by remarkEon » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 3:56 PM UTC

TruthSHIFT wrote: post #13

fcarraldo wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Trump, Brexit and Duterte are what the people want, perhaps we live in societies that are incapable of self-governance. I'm no fan of centrist neoliberal politics, but regimes and decisions which destabilize economies, marginalize minorities and villainize immigrants are clearly not a better alternative.

Having an election manipulated by the Russian government does not count as "self-governance."

How long is this going to be the go to excuse? Some ad buys and an email phishing scheme is “manipulated”?

Re: Who needs democracy when you have data?

#17

Post by sgjohnson » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 3:59 PM UTC

I don't need democracy. I only need liberty.

Representative democracy creates career politicians. And career politicians are yet to prove that they aren't just a complete waste of oxygen.

Re: Who needs democracy when you have data?

#18

Post by MichaelMoser123 » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 4:05 PM UTC

So what's the use of all this fancy data if they can't have accurate statistics? That should have been the basis of scientific management?

Re: Who needs democracy when you have data?

#19

Post by goatlover » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 4:08 PM UTC

fcarraldo wrote: post #5

coldtea wrote: post #3

> It helps that a tumultuous couple of years in the world’s democracies have made the Chinese political elite feel increasingly justified in shutting out voters. Developments such as Donald Trump’s election, Brexit, the rise of far-right parties across Europe, and Rodrigo Duterte’s reign of terror in the Philippines underscore what many critics see as the problems inherent in democracy, especially populism, instabili…

If Trump, Brexit and Duterte are what the people want, perhaps we live in societies that are incapable of self-governance. I'm no fan of centrist neoliberal politics, but regimes and decisions which destabilize economies, marginalize minorities and villainize immigrants are clearly not a better alternative.

> clearly not a better alternative.

To what, though? What's the choice here? Give a few people even more power without having to be voted in? Who decides which people get all the power? What if they're worse? How do we get rid of them? Is a bloody revolution or decades of dictatorship really the same as having elections where the votes don't always make the best choices?

Re: Who needs democracy when you have data?

#20

Post by mjirv » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 4:09 PM UTC

lumberjack wrote: post #6

coldtea wrote: post #3

> It helps that a tumultuous couple of years in the world’s democracies have made the Chinese political elite feel increasingly justified in shutting out voters. Developments such as Donald Trump’s election, Brexit, the rise of far-right parties across Europe, and Rodrigo Duterte’s reign of terror in the Philippines underscore what many critics see as the problems inherent in democracy, especially populism, instabili…

Trump and BREXIT: the blame is put entirely on the electorate, but in both cases it was the elites who gave the electorate the opportunity to make a choice and it was the elites who provided the selection of possible choices. Think of the many contemporary political issues on which the elites refuse to provide such a choice and insist on governing as they please. This is the same as when the media (the voice of the s…

It's also worth noting that Trump actually lost by the (small-d) democratic measure: the popular vote. What gave him the election was the Electoral College, an institution designed precisely to "protect" against "tyranny of the majority."

So if anything, Trump's election is a point in favor of more democracy, not less.