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The islands with a flourishing 'third gender'

bbc.com

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Re: The islands with a flourishing 'third gender'

#11

Post by bryanlarsen »

solidsnack9000 wrote: post #3

It is mostly males that become transgender women – female transitions to male are extremely rare... From that point on, his work belongs to the woman’s family, and it’s the woman who decides whether her husband can share his fish, coconuts or plantains with his own parents or siblings. Taken together, these two observations make a lot of sense. In a closed society where women have consolidated power like that, why wo…

The article explicitly states that the society is not a matriarchy; all the chiefs etc are men.

Japan is generally viewed as a heavily patriarchal society, yet has similar customs. For example, a typical couple's bank account is controlled by the wife.

Re: The islands with a flourishing 'third gender'

#13

Post by 08-15 »

Rotdhizon wrote: post #4

Very interesting read. The thing stood out to me most is that it says the islands didn't start getting discriminatory until they started encountering western culture and having it rub off on them. They still aren't overly discriminatory, but it is a minor side effect of contact with external influences. It is fascinating to know that there are islands where gender identify doesn't matter. If you want to be a woman, j…

> If you want to be a woman, just act like one and you will be accepted.

But you still aren't a woman, you are omeggid.

Re: The islands with a flourishing 'third gender'

#14

Post by anewone »

Thailand also has a third gender for MTF and Iran has support for MTF operations. What's interesting to me is that FTM doesn't seem to get the same support. Why is that?

Is it because patriarchy doesn't want to allow more into the club but is fine with kicking people out? Is there a biological force which makes MTF more common?

Not trying to offend anyone, I am genuinely curious.

Re: The islands with a flourishing 'third gender'

#15

Post by Raphmedia »

Rotdhizon wrote: post #4

Very interesting read. The thing stood out to me most is that it says the islands didn't start getting discriminatory until they started encountering western culture and having it rub off on them. They still aren't overly discriminatory, but it is a minor side effect of contact with external influences. It is fascinating to know that there are islands where gender identify doesn't matter. If you want to be a woman, j…

It's quite common. When I first struggled with my gender indentity, I looked at the world's history. Our Western societies puts such shame on individuals not on the edges of the gender spectrum that it's easy to think you are outright crazy. I found many example of it thoughout history. I never made a complete list but here are some that comes to mind:

- Samoan fa'afafine,

- Native American Two-Spirits (umbralla term, each tribe has their own word), - South Asian Hijras,

- Ethiopian Ashtime,

- Hawaiin Māhū,

- Philippines's multiple gender identities (baklâ, bayot,etc.),

Etc.

Re: The islands with a flourishing 'third gender'

#17

Post by rsynnott »

anewone wrote: post #14

Thailand also has a third gender for MTF and Iran has support for MTF operations. What's interesting to me is that FTM doesn't seem to get the same support. Why is that? Is it because patriarchy doesn't want to allow more into the club but is fine with kicking people out? Is there a biological force which makes MTF more common? Not trying to offend anyone, I am genuinely curious.

There are arguable examples, for instance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_sworn_virgins

However, even in the modern west, the existence of FTM transgender people people tends to be largely ignored by society. I think it is a concept that people are even less willing to accept than the idea of MTF transgender people, though I could only speculate why.

Re: The islands with a flourishing 'third gender'

#18

Post by throw27474 »

>> Throughout ages, across continents and cultures, gender fluidity and the concept of a third gender consistently reappears: the hijras in India; the Meti in Nepal; the Fa’afafine in Samoa; the ‘two-spirit’ people in North America. They are not the exception, we are.

Really? This is four cultures. Are there not many, many more where gender is generally seen as fixed and binary?

Re: The islands with a flourishing 'third gender'

#19

Post by recraft »

xj9 wrote: post #5
solidsnack9000 wrote: post #3

It is mostly males that become transgender women – female transitions to male are extremely rare... From that point on, his work belongs to the woman’s family, and it’s the woman who decides whether her husband can share his fish, coconuts or plantains with his own parents or siblings. Taken together, these two observations make a lot of sense. In a closed society where women have consolidated power like that, why wo…

if i'm not mistaken, MTF is more common that FTM in the general population, so it might not be tied to culture.

This is patently false[0]. (This is the largest population I could find)

The reason it looks this way is because Western culture has systemic oppositional sexism and views female gender roles as performative and artificial (the way our culture expects women to always be wearing makeup being one of many examples), subsequently trans women are far more salacious of a topic to the general public, whereas trans men are erased because our culture sees them as trying to pull themselves up by their bootstraps from a position of inferiority to a position of power. (That must be it right?!?)

If you’re interested I’d highly recommend the book “Whipping Girl” by Julia Serano.

[0]http://gids.nhs.uk/number-referrals

Re: The islands with a flourishing 'third gender'

#20

Post by rsynnott »

Rotdhizon wrote: post #4

Very interesting read. The thing stood out to me most is that it says the islands didn't start getting discriminatory until they started encountering western culture and having it rub off on them. They still aren't overly discriminatory, but it is a minor side effect of contact with external influences. It is fascinating to know that there are islands where gender identify doesn't matter. If you want to be a woman, j…

Quite a few societies have some concept of a third gender, and sometimes more than that. Most Western examples are 19th century or later (at least post-classical; the ancient Greeks had a couple), but there are multiple far older examples in other parts of the world.
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