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A PhD should be about improving society, not chasing academic kudos

theguardian.com

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Re: A PhD should be about improving society, not chasing academic kudos

#11

Post by leereeves »

abnry wrote: post #3
thrwaway11 wrote: post #2

How much of this argument should apply to more theoretical areas of research like pure mathematics?

I used to be in a math PhD program. Probably would still be if not for some life circumstance. I think it is worth taking a hard look at the value all of this mathematical research actually produces. I understand how number theory has been useful to cryptography. I understand how branches of pure math can have a surprising influence. But when these examples are given by pure mathematicians, it often strikes me as ane…

Cryptography is a trivial example.

The entire field of computing was invented by pure mathematicians like Turing and Church working in the 1930s. At the time, no one had any idea what the applications, if any, would be.

It's like any science. Some work has immediate applications. Other work is pure exploration of the unknown.

And it is pure exploration of the unknown that leads to the truly revolutionary discoveries. You can't set out to discover penicillin when you don't even know it exists.

Re: A PhD should be about improving society, not chasing academic kudos

#12

Post by JadeNB »

Great, I can play too! Corporations should be about improving the public good, as they used to be [0], not chasing monetary value. Your turn!

[0] Not just "in my day"-ism. According to "We the corporations", demonstrating this was originally part of the legal requirement for many governments' approval of articles of incorporation.

Re: A PhD should be about improving society, not chasing academic kudos

#14

Post by apo »

When you look at the stats, it’s hard not to conclude that the current PhD system is fundamentally broken. Mental health issues are rife: approximately one-third of PhD students are at risk of having or developing a psychiatric disorder like depression. The high level of dropouts is similarly worrying – and possibly another symptom of the same problem. Research suggests that on average 50% of PhD students leave graduate school without finishing – with numbers higher at some institutions.

The biggest risk factor I've found for a PhD student is lack of research experience during the undergrad degree.

I've seen it over and over.

A newly-minted bachelor's student without research experience has no preparation for the frustration, isolation, and sense of futility that real researchers face.

When it hits them, many discover they lack the temperament to actually move a research project forward. By then, they will have sunk 2-3 years of their life (or more) and a major amount of prestige into a failed attempt.

If you're an undergraduate and harbor the slightest ambition to get a PhD, drop what you're doing right now and start looking for a research group to join. You're going to need 2-3 years of experience actually doing research to know if it's something you'll enjoy long term.

You may well discover that you don't like what you find. If so, better to know that now than when you're in your late 20s.

If things do work out, you'll have a better idea of what to look for in advisors and schools.

Re: A PhD should be about improving society, not chasing academic kudos

#15

Post by maxxxxx »

leereeves wrote: post #11
abnry wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to be in a math PhD program. Probably would still be if not for some life circumstance. I think it is worth taking a hard look at the value all of this mathematical research actually produces. I understand how number theory has been useful to cryptography. I understand how branches of pure math can have a surprising influence. But when these examples are given by pure mathematicians, it often strikes me as ane…

Cryptography is a trivial example. The entire field of computing was invented by pure mathematicians like Turing and Church working in the 1930s. At the time, no one had any idea what the applications, if any, would be. It's like any science. Some work has immediate applications. Other work is pure exploration of the unknown. And it is pure exploration of the unknown that leads to the truly revolutionary discoveries.…

Exactly. A lot of discoveries can be viewed as useless for quite a while before someone figures out a practical application.

Re: A PhD should be about improving society, not chasing academic kudos

#16

Post by JadeNB »

CJefferson wrote: post #7
abnry wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to be in a math PhD program. Probably would still be if not for some life circumstance. I think it is worth taking a hard look at the value all of this mathematical research actually produces. I understand how number theory has been useful to cryptography. I understand how branches of pure math can have a surprising influence. But when these examples are given by pure mathematicians, it often strikes me as ane…

Your claim we could reduce mathematics research misses one big step -- that we can tell, in advance, which mathematicians (and researchers in general) are doing the "useful" research. In my experience that is very hard to predict. Also often researchers are "standing on the shoulders of giants", so the people who look most real world useful are extending earlier, "not useful" research.

In perhaps pithier words, accepting abnry's figures

> It may be true that 80% of the mathematical research that is valuable to society is done by 20% of mathematicians. In this case, not much can be lost by reducing research funding.

, you can probably get 80% of the return by cutting the right 80% of research; but, if you cut the wrong 80%, then you might be left with just the 20% return on the remaining 20% of work, or 4%.

(Also, there're lots of ways to cut the wrong 80%, and only one way to cut the right 80%.)

Re: A PhD should be about improving society, not chasing academic kudos

#17

Post by dagw »

131012 wrote: post #8

I totally agree with the problems of academia chasing citations, but the solution sounds odd to me. There are plenty of applied master programs aimed exactly at what is proposed: engaging with the professional community and fixing simple stuff. But I still think some people should be isolated from the daily torment of humanity to push us forward. Maybe we just need less PHD.

At least here in Sweden there are also PhD programs where you do your research at a company and split your time 50-50 between that company and the University.

Re: A PhD should be about improving society, not chasing academic kudos

#18

Post by mattkrause »

abnry wrote: post #3
thrwaway11 wrote: post #2

How much of this argument should apply to more theoretical areas of research like pure mathematics?

I used to be in a math PhD program. Probably would still be if not for some life circumstance. I think it is worth taking a hard look at the value all of this mathematical research actually produces. I understand how number theory has been useful to cryptography. I understand how branches of pure math can have a surprising influence. But when these examples are given by pure mathematicians, it often strikes me as ane…

Number theory is an excellent example since it was an academic curiosity until it suddenly became very very useful. While cryptography is built on number theory, that earlier research was not done with the explicit goal of developing cryptography. Instead, people took existing math and built new applications around it.

Obviously, it would be nice to fund only things that are eventually useful, but this is virtually impossible to predict in advance so....we fund a bunch of things and see what works. (Also, math is shockingly cheap compared to lab sciences so it makes even more sense to spread the bets widely.)

Re: A PhD should be about improving society, not chasing academic kudos

#20

Post by ipioxu15 »

abnry wrote: post #3
thrwaway11 wrote: post #2

How much of this argument should apply to more theoretical areas of research like pure mathematics?

I used to be in a math PhD program. Probably would still be if not for some life circumstance. I think it is worth taking a hard look at the value all of this mathematical research actually produces. I understand how number theory has been useful to cryptography. I understand how branches of pure math can have a surprising influence. But when these examples are given by pure mathematicians, it often strikes me as ane…

> A hobby that has some relatively low chance of impacting society.

As opposed to more important pursuits, such as advertising.

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