Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat • Hacker News Board

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#11

Post by mantas » Wed, Aug 08, 2018, 11:10 AM UTC

cs02rm0 wrote: post #5

captainbland wrote: post #2

I think that if there are financial penalties - or similar in the case of bail - they have to be adjusted to means (don't get me wrong, this can be a challenge in itself). Otherwise you're basically saying that something is legal for the rich who could easily make the bail or the fine, but illegal for somebody poor who cannot make the fine which can have ever worse consequences. Why should that be?

If one person gets their life savings cleared out for a $100 speeding fine, how do you equate that financial pain to Bill Gates? Why should Bill Gates be punished more in the same situation for having put the work in to build a successful company? You end up with silly (IMHO) situations like someone getting a $290k fine in Switzerland for 85mph in a 50 zone. 6 months in jail for someone who can't afford a $1k bail is…

If you were looking at fine as a price to pay to break the law, then yes, it's silly. But the fine should make you not want to break the law in the first place. Then math is completely different.

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#12

Post by skate22 » Wed, Aug 08, 2018, 11:10 AM UTC

cs02rm0 wrote: post #5

captainbland wrote: post #2

I think that if there are financial penalties - or similar in the case of bail - they have to be adjusted to means (don't get me wrong, this can be a challenge in itself). Otherwise you're basically saying that something is legal for the rich who could easily make the bail or the fine, but illegal for somebody poor who cannot make the fine which can have ever worse consequences. Why should that be?

If one person gets their life savings cleared out for a $100 speeding fine, how do you equate that financial pain to Bill Gates? Why should Bill Gates be punished more in the same situation for having put the work in to build a successful company? You end up with silly (IMHO) situations like someone getting a $290k fine in Switzerland for 85mph in a 50 zone. 6 months in jail for someone who can't afford a $1k bail is…

A $50 ticket is not going to deter bill gates from speeding.

The goal of a speeding ticket is not to collect $50, it is to save lives by detering people from speeding..

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#13

Post by mantas » Wed, Aug 08, 2018, 11:11 AM UTC

titzer wrote: post #4

This is horrible. Instead of bail, they should just have steeper fines for failure to appear and yet on the flipside the same guarantees afforded to jury duty as far as employment (i.e. can't be fired for having to appear in court). That would allow poorer people to keep their jobs and still be present for court dates. Flight risk is really not as high as the system is designed for.

Steeper fines for failure to appear is just pushing the goalpost.

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#14

Post by Shoh3pif » Wed, Aug 08, 2018, 11:13 AM UTC

masklinn wrote: post #7

captainbland wrote: post #2

I think that if there are financial penalties - or similar in the case of bail - they have to be adjusted to means (don't get me wrong, this can be a challenge in itself). Otherwise you're basically saying that something is legal for the rich who could easily make the bail or the fine, but illegal for somebody poor who cannot make the fine which can have ever worse consequences. Why should that be?

That is the case in (some?) Scandinavian countries, as well as Switzerland. I think it's generally indexed on income (based on tax return), with fines being expressed in days (of a fraction of the offender's disposable income). There's usually a lower bound (e.g. 6€ in Finland) but no upper bound. The day-fines may also be convertible to jail time (at a ratio of 1:3 or 1:4 I think).

That's also the case in the german-speaking countries.

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#15

Post by IneffablePigeon » Wed, Aug 08, 2018, 11:14 AM UTC

cs02rm0 wrote: post #5

captainbland wrote: post #2

I think that if there are financial penalties - or similar in the case of bail - they have to be adjusted to means (don't get me wrong, this can be a challenge in itself). Otherwise you're basically saying that something is legal for the rich who could easily make the bail or the fine, but illegal for somebody poor who cannot make the fine which can have ever worse consequences. Why should that be?

If one person gets their life savings cleared out for a $100 speeding fine, how do you equate that financial pain to Bill Gates? Why should Bill Gates be punished more in the same situation for having put the work in to build a successful company? You end up with silly (IMHO) situations like someone getting a $290k fine in Switzerland for 85mph in a 50 zone. 6 months in jail for someone who can't afford a $1k bail is…

The whole point of those Switzerland-style fines based on wealth are to make sure that Bill Gates is punished the _same_ amount for the same crime, not more. It's just using a different measure of "amount of punishment" - in this case something based on proportion of wealth/income rather than a flat amount. That flat amount means a lot less to Bill Gates than someone who has $100 in savings.

Having to rely on charities to fix problems in our justice system seems completely backwards to me. That's a workaround, not a solution.

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#16

Post by dismantlethesun » Wed, Aug 08, 2018, 11:15 AM UTC

mschuster91 wrote: post #8

titzer wrote: post #4

This is horrible. Instead of bail, they should just have steeper fines for failure to appear and yet on the flipside the same guarantees afforded to jury duty as far as employment (i.e. can't be fired for having to appear in court). That would allow poorer people to keep their jobs and still be present for court dates. Flight risk is really not as high as the system is designed for.

> Flight risk is really not as high as the system is designed for. The system is rigged against the minorities. Look why cannabis was criminalized in the first place - to target blacks and hippies ( https://edition.cnn.com/2016/03/23/politics/john-ehrlichman-... ). As a politician, keep as many of 'em in jails as you can, thus showing the white population you're "tough on crime" and at the same time filling the coffe…

I have heard this and always wondered what exactly is keeping people from doing drugs with lessers sentencing?

For example, if crack-cocaine carries a high sentence, then why not drop the habit in exchange for powdered cocaine?

If the question is price, then this is really more of a system targeting the poor than one that is against any specific minority group.

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#17

Post by ajuc » Wed, Aug 08, 2018, 11:15 AM UTC

cs02rm0 wrote: post #5

captainbland wrote: post #2

I think that if there are financial penalties - or similar in the case of bail - they have to be adjusted to means (don't get me wrong, this can be a challenge in itself). Otherwise you're basically saying that something is legal for the rich who could easily make the bail or the fine, but illegal for somebody poor who cannot make the fine which can have ever worse consequences. Why should that be?

If one person gets their life savings cleared out for a $100 speeding fine, how do you equate that financial pain to Bill Gates? Why should Bill Gates be punished more in the same situation for having put the work in to build a successful company? You end up with silly (IMHO) situations like someone getting a $290k fine in Switzerland for 85mph in a 50 zone. 6 months in jail for someone who can't afford a $1k bail is…

Same reason companies are punished for some crimes as a percentage of their value.

If flushing toxic waste to a river always resulted in constant fine - for rich companies with big enough waste treatment bills it would be rational (cheaper) to do it and pay the fines.

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#18

Post by Ntrails » Wed, Aug 08, 2018, 11:15 AM UTC

titzer wrote: post #4

This is horrible. Instead of bail, they should just have steeper fines for failure to appear and yet on the flipside the same guarantees afforded to jury duty as far as employment (i.e. can't be fired for having to appear in court). That would allow poorer people to keep their jobs and still be present for court dates. Flight risk is really not as high as the system is designed for.

The problem with a fine for failure to appear is that you have to find the person to make them pay. The assumption being that if you're skipping out on a court case you're probably doing so with the intention of never attending, and a fine they can't enforce isn't going to make a difference.

The logic behind bail is simple, you either show up to court or lose money that you cannot afford to lose. The incentives make sense at first glance.

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#19

Post by mrpopo » Wed, Aug 08, 2018, 11:17 AM UTC

cs02rm0 wrote: post #5

captainbland wrote: post #2

I think that if there are financial penalties - or similar in the case of bail - they have to be adjusted to means (don't get me wrong, this can be a challenge in itself). Otherwise you're basically saying that something is legal for the rich who could easily make the bail or the fine, but illegal for somebody poor who cannot make the fine which can have ever worse consequences. Why should that be?

If one person gets their life savings cleared out for a $100 speeding fine, how do you equate that financial pain to Bill Gates? Why should Bill Gates be punished more in the same situation for having put the work in to build a successful company? You end up with silly (IMHO) situations like someone getting a $290k fine in Switzerland for 85mph in a 50 zone. 6 months in jail for someone who can't afford a $1k bail is…

> Why should Bill Gates be punished more in the same situation for having put the work in to build a successful company?

This would make people equal in front of the law.

Why would being wealthy allow you to break the law more often with less consequences on your wellbeing? See the example of Harvey Weinstein in the article. The dude is rich, so he can get away with it. What do you think of that?

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#20

Post by dismantlethesun » Wed, Aug 08, 2018, 11:18 AM UTC

masklinn wrote: post #9

cs02rm0 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If one person gets their life savings cleared out for a $100 speeding fine, how do you equate that financial pain to Bill Gates? Why should Bill Gates be punished more in the same situation for having put the work in to build a successful company? You end up with silly (IMHO) situations like someone getting a $290k fine in Switzerland for 85mph in a 50 zone. 6 months in jail for someone who can't afford a $1k bail is…

> If one person gets their life savings cleared out for a $100 speeding fine, how do you equate that financial pain to Bill Gates? Why should Bill Gates be punished more in the same situation for having put the work in to build a successful company? He's not punished "more", he's punished equitably . The ultimate goal is not to collect $100, it's for the offender to not reoffend. Disposable income is an actual object…

> The ultimate goal is not to collect $100, it's for the offender to not reoffend.

If that is the ultimate goal, then fine equitable punishment would include fines targeting versus ability to pay.

However, if the system is simply seeking recompense for an action then it is unfair to place a higher fine on someone simply because they have more money.

For traffic offenses such as speeding, perhaps stopping re-offending is the goal since speeding always carries a higher risk accidentally harming someone else.

For a parking meter offense, I think the goal is simple recompense as if you had put in more money at the outset, you would not have been fined.