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Internationalized domain names in Linux

bogdan.nimblex.net

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Re: Internationalized domain names in Linux

#11

Post by eximius »

estebank wrote: post #8
Sir_Cmpwn wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly this. Punycode is poorly supported because no one wants it, it just opens a huge front for phishing.

This is a very anglocentric view of the internet. Most of the problems with the full unicode set can be sidestepped by a combination of UAX #31[1], NFKC[2], ignoring ligatures and digraphs[3], and following UTR #39[4]. Cyrillic apple.com is one of the few cases where it is still problematic and extra UI feedback would be needed. [1]: http://unicode.org/reports/tr31/ [2]: http://unicode.org/reports/tr15/ [3]: https://…

> This is a very anglocentric view of the internet.

Yes, it was. The grandparent is literally saying that, as an American, punycode is primarily a risk to them, not a feature.

> Most of the problems with the full unicode set can be sidestepped by a combination of...

By a combination of 4 different, complicated things that most technical users know little about and non-technical users know nothing about? And problems still remain? That doesn't bode well.

Re: Internationalized domain names in Linux

#12

Post by michaelmrose »

estebank wrote: post #8
Sir_Cmpwn wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly this. Punycode is poorly supported because no one wants it, it just opens a huge front for phishing.

This is a very anglocentric view of the internet. Most of the problems with the full unicode set can be sidestepped by a combination of UAX #31[1], NFKC[2], ignoring ligatures and digraphs[3], and following UTR #39[4]. Cyrillic apple.com is one of the few cases where it is still problematic and extra UI feedback would be needed. [1]: http://unicode.org/reports/tr31/ [2]: http://unicode.org/reports/tr15/ [3]: https://…

It is anglocentric and valid. I live in a country of over 300 million people almost all of which speak English. Almost half the people on the internet at present speak English and virtually all the content I could possibly want to consume is available in a non unicode domain.

For me and 300 million users avoiding malicious attempts at spoofing is important. Setting show punycode to true enables me to view pages in international domains in case I need to do this while preventing me from being exploited.

Its at present the best option for hundreds of millions of people.

Its not shortsighted or racist to acknowledge different populations of users have different needs.

Edit: In case people can't be bothered to read it should be obvious that I am advocating for shipping with show punycode true for the English US version of firefox.

Re: Internationalized domain names in Linux

#13

Post by zokier »

michaelmrose wrote: post #2

Please see https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=279099 or this site that looks like apple.com https://www.xn--80ak6aa92e.com/ regarding homographic or look alike character attacks. As an American only fluent in English I'm enormously more likely to encounter malicious content than content that is useful to me on internationalized domain names. To make this less likely you can set network.IDN_show_punycode tru…

Huh, Edge does really weird thing with that site; it shows punycode in the addressbar, but decodes it in the "website information" box that pops up when you click the lock icon:

https://cdn.pbrd.co/images/HxdrkES.png

In comparison Firefox (for better or worse) consistently decodes it until you reach the certificate details window (which is like 4 levels deep in clicking)

https://cdn.pbrd.co/images/HxdsqId.png

But Edge (and IE apparently) have another trick in their sleeve, something that I really wish Firefox would also adapt in some way: small icon that shows that it is IDN:

https://cdn.pbrd.co/images/HxdtJGD.png

Sure, it is pretty insignificant and kinda difficult to notice, so probably won't help much against scammers. But I think it is still pretty neat.

Re: Internationalized domain names in Linux

#14

Post by orf »

michaelmrose wrote: post #12
estebank wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a very anglocentric view of the internet. Most of the problems with the full unicode set can be sidestepped by a combination of UAX #31[1], NFKC[2], ignoring ligatures and digraphs[3], and following UTR #39[4]. Cyrillic apple.com is one of the few cases where it is still problematic and extra UI feedback would be needed. [1]: http://unicode.org/reports/tr31/ [2]: http://unicode.org/reports/tr15/ [3]: https://…

It is anglocentric and valid. I live in a country of over 300 million people almost all of which speak English. Almost half the people on the internet at present speak English and virtually all the content I could possibly want to consume is available in a non unicode domain. For me and 300 million users avoiding malicious attempts at spoofing is important. Setting show punycode to true enables me to view pages in in…

I think people are downvoting you because it seems like you are suggesting that because it's OK for you billions of internet users have their functionality downgraded.

If you feel like punycode is a security issue then you should disable it. Perhaps browsers could do this automatically for people like you. But that's on you - saying 'nobody wants it because i speak english' is not a great foot to stand on.

Re: Internationalized domain names in Linux

#15

Post by michaelmrose »

orf wrote: post #14
michaelmrose wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is anglocentric and valid. I live in a country of over 300 million people almost all of which speak English. Almost half the people on the internet at present speak English and virtually all the content I could possibly want to consume is available in a non unicode domain. For me and 300 million users avoiding malicious attempts at spoofing is important. Setting show punycode to true enables me to view pages in in…

I think people are downvoting you because it seems like you are suggesting that because it's OK for you billions of internet users have their functionality downgraded. If you feel like punycode is a security issue then you should disable it. Perhaps browsers could do this automatically for people like you. But that's on you - saying 'nobody wants it because i speak english' is not a great foot to stand on.

People overwhelmingly use defaults. The default shouldn't be problematic. Since we already ship an us english version among many others THAT version should have this feature disabled or show the actual punycode in the url bar.

I'm honestly unsure how you can possibly make a browser that allows look alike characters secure against phishing but at least its a different sort of trade off when you are talking about populations of users that might actually encounter non phishing sites using these domains.

Re: Internationalized domain names in Linux

#16

Post by estebank »

eximius wrote: post #11
estebank wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a very anglocentric view of the internet. Most of the problems with the full unicode set can be sidestepped by a combination of UAX #31[1], NFKC[2], ignoring ligatures and digraphs[3], and following UTR #39[4]. Cyrillic apple.com is one of the few cases where it is still problematic and extra UI feedback would be needed. [1]: http://unicode.org/reports/tr31/ [2]: http://unicode.org/reports/tr15/ [3]: https://…

> This is a very anglocentric view of the internet. Yes, it was. The grandparent is literally saying that, as an American, punycode is primarily a risk to them, not a feature. > Most of the problems with the full unicode set can be sidestepped by a combination of... By a combination of 4 different, complicated things that most technical users know little about and non-technical users know nothing about? And problems…

> Yes, it was. The grandparent is literally saying that, as an American, punycode is primarily a risk to them, not a feature.

...arriving to the conclusion that six billion people[1] having a degraded experience (sometimes severely) is a good trade-off. As somebody else down-thread mentioned, browsers targeted at anglophones maybe should make Cyrillic characters always obvious, but that doesn't mean this should be the default for everyone. The part I disagree with the gp with is in that "no one wants it".

> By a combination of 4 different, complicated things that most technical users know little about and non-technical users know nothing about? And problems still remain? That doesn't bode well.

I don't see how "most technical users[...] and non-technical users" have any need to learn about those "4 different, complicated things", only people directly working on User-Agents and networking have any need to understand those documents.

[1]: People that speak some level of English total ~1 billion https://blog.esl-languages.com/blog/learn-languages/most-spo...

Re: Internationalized domain names in Linux

#17

Post by slim »

michaelmrose wrote: post #2

Please see https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=279099 or this site that looks like apple.com https://www.xn--80ak6aa92e.com/ regarding homographic or look alike character attacks. As an American only fluent in English I'm enormously more likely to encounter malicious content than content that is useful to me on internationalized domain names. To make this less likely you can set network.IDN_show_punycode tru…

Apple should have registered that domain name, like they did with apple.net. But somehow when a domain with the same name uses Unicode it becomes a problem of IDN

Re: Internationalized domain names in Linux

#18

Post by aaronmdjones »

CaliforniaKarl wrote: post #6
jwilk wrote: post #4

The author is confused. glibc does support IDN, but of course it's not enabled by default. The applications that want IDN have to opt in by specifying an appropriate flag. http://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man3/getaddrinfo.3.html (search for "Internationalized Domain Names")

It looks like getaddrinfo does have that ability, but I could not tell if gethostbyname supports it.

Please stop using gethostbyname(3). Among other things, it doesn't support IPv6.

Re: Internationalized domain names in Linux

#19

Post by michaelmrose »

slim wrote: post #17
michaelmrose wrote: post #2

Please see https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=279099 or this site that looks like apple.com https://www.xn--80ak6aa92e.com/ regarding homographic or look alike character attacks. As an American only fluent in English I'm enormously more likely to encounter malicious content than content that is useful to me on internationalized domain names. To make this less likely you can set network.IDN_show_punycode tru…

Apple should have registered that domain name, like they did with apple.net. But somehow when a domain with the same name uses Unicode it becomes a problem of IDN

Should everyone register every possible look alike combination including bribing or sueing every possible squatter.

Being careful to watch for changes to unicode and new tlds.

Maybe someone can write an npm module to figure out how many hundreds of domains you should get to cover the intersection of all possible tlds, look alikes, and typos.

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