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The problem with programming and how to fix it

alarmingdevelopment.org

11–20 of 99 posts

Re: The problem with programming and how to fix it

#11
Programming for beginners is just as accessible as it has ever been, there are good languages (some specifically for beginners: Logo, and game making languages and so on) and good courses.

Where do I think programming has stalled is in the business environment. There, as the article correctly points out, it's much harder to automate your job unless you work in an IT department.

Most business end-users do their work in Microsoft Office, and this is one area where I think the tools have stalled. Visual Basic and its object models are a painful hurdle for a smart non-programmer who is trying to get things done efficiently, or who wants to learn programming for its own sake.

There have been some attempts to wire up Excel with Python, but until Microsoft decides to bundle an easy tool with every user's MS Office, programming is going to remain an arcane art.

Re: The problem with programming and how to fix it

#12
post #2

Hah, I was nodding along with the article and then got to this bit: > What reason is there to believe we can improve programming technology to be vastly easier and more accessible? To start with, spreadsheets. Spreadsheets are by far the most popular programming tool, used by far more people than “real” programming. Surely it must be possible to carve out other domains like that of spreadsheets without taking on the…

> There isn't good version control for Excel. Linting is mediocre. And the language itself sucks, because the programmers who work on it don't think spreadsheets are programming, and don't think the people using spreadsheets are programmers.

Since you're writing a spreasheet app, I presume you are familiar with Feliene's work on this topic?

http://www.felienne.com/publications

Also, you probably will find Edwards videos about his own experiments interesting:

https://vimeo.com/jonathoda

Re: The problem with programming and how to fix it

#13
post #8

> Programming today is exactly what you’d expect to get by paying an isolated subculture of nerdy young men to entertain themselves for fifty years. You get a cross between Dungeons & Dragons and Rubik’s Cube, elaborated a thousand-fold. This is vague and insulting. Many of us programmers spend a lot of energy to keep systems simple, to a point that one could mistakenly conclude that they were easy to write. We don't…

> Programming today is exactly what you’d expect to get by paying an isolated subculture of nerdy young men to entertain themselves for fifty years. You get a cross between Dungeons & Dragons and Rubik’s Cube, elaborated a thousand-fold.

This is vague and insulting.

As someone who can solve a Rubik's cube and has programmed and played D&D since the version predating the "Advanced" ones, I think it's spot on!

Many of us programmers spend a lot of energy to keep systems simple, to a point that one could mistakenly conclude that they were easy to write.

I've seen code like that. It's the exception, not the rule!

We don't dream of having to maintain complex machineries reminding us of Rubik's cubes

Really? Because I've seen lots of 20-something programmers trot out a bit of code because it's "neat" without regard to cost/benefit within the project and within the current codebase.

We consider maintainance nightmares and hard-to-understand systems as failures, not goals.

I see lots of programmers who blame the skill and intelligence of their fellows while not demonstrating self-awareness by examining how everyone's participation in the system creates the mess in an emergent fashion -- then go on to fail to solve it.

We don't love complexity, we hate it (but the less experienced of us haven't got the chance to fully develop this hatred).

Plenty of the younguns just straight out fetishize complexity. Overtly. Enthusiastically!

Re: The problem with programming and how to fix it

#14
post #11

Programming for beginners is just as accessible as it has ever been, there are good languages (some specifically for beginners: Logo, and game making languages and so on) and good courses. Where do I think programming has stalled is in the business environment. There, as the article correctly points out, it's much harder to automate your job unless you work in an IT department. Most business end-users do their work i…

MS recently added support for JS in Excel: https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/office/blogs/azure-mac...

Re: The problem with programming and how to fix it

#15
post #2

Hah, I was nodding along with the article and then got to this bit: > What reason is there to believe we can improve programming technology to be vastly easier and more accessible? To start with, spreadsheets. Spreadsheets are by far the most popular programming tool, used by far more people than “real” programming. Surely it must be possible to carve out other domains like that of spreadsheets without taking on the…

> There isn't good version control for Excel. Linting is mediocre. And the language itself sucks, because the programmers who work on it don't think spreadsheets are programming, and don't think the people using spreadsheets are programmers. Since you're writing a spreasheet app, I presume you are familiar with Feliene's work on this topic? http://www.felienne.com/publications Also, you probably will find Edwards vid…

> I presume

I'm not! Thank you!

I've been pretty heads-down writing my thing, but I'll be sure to set aside my evenings to go through both sites exhaustively, and probably try to get in contact with both to ask for feedback.

Re: The problem with programming and how to fix it

#17
post #8

> Programming today is exactly what you’d expect to get by paying an isolated subculture of nerdy young men to entertain themselves for fifty years. You get a cross between Dungeons & Dragons and Rubik’s Cube, elaborated a thousand-fold. This is vague and insulting. Many of us programmers spend a lot of energy to keep systems simple, to a point that one could mistakenly conclude that they were easy to write. We don't…

When someone points out a painful truth, it's better to take a good look at oneself, be honest about our flaws, and accept their advice, than to just reject it and consider the other person as mean-spirited.

> Many of us programmers spend a lot of energy to keep systems simple

"Many" is not good enough (and makes me think of the cringy and problematic #notallmen thing on twitter). Ask yourself: who introduces the complexity to those systems again?

Re: The problem with programming and how to fix it

#18

I believe that software is not a professional practise but a new form of literacy (in fact the book I am writing is all about this (Real Soon Now, thanks for asking)) And when you see software as literacy a lot of the stuff he moans about simply goes away. Yes it is seen as exclusive and a priesthood - imagine what illiterate serfs thought of those who could write. It took years of practise. No it's not a good idea t…

I was quite pleased with your analogy! But perhaps I misunderstood. I was reading the subtext as a very clever dig at the "hashtag generation" by likening their preferred method of communication (140 character thought bubbles, txt-ing, snapchat etc.) to something as banal as fridge magnets.

Re: The problem with programming and how to fix it

#19
post #9
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> backslashes in strings There's a simple solution to that: use «balanced quotes»

Does that help if those characters appear in the string? My bet is on editors that let you "type your string into this text box".

> Does that help if those characters appear in the string?

Yes, that's the whole point.

«With balanced quotes you can have «embedded strings» without escapes»

The only time that doesn't work is if you want to embed a quote character as a character rather than as a string delimiter. But that is extremely rare.

There are also “different styles” of balanced quotes to choose from, so you can embed a quote character of one style inside a string delimited by a different style.

There will always be perverse situations where a backslash is needed. But you can make them much less common with balanced quotes.

Re: The problem with programming and how to fix it

#20
Simplifying software is a fantastic goal, but blaming the situation on an "isolated subculture of nerdy young men" is the opposite of helpful. Also, I would seriously consider the fact that some things are simply complicated and there's no conspiracy behind it. A lot of very smart people work very hard to find ways of taming this beast. It's just hard.
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