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Google Titan Security Key

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Re: Google Titan Security Key

#11

Post by Cthulhu_ »

aichi wrote: post #8

Why Google 'sell' this as an advantage over 2FA over mobile phone? In this case it works on computer only, or you have to be at some computer, with mobile app, you can be anywhere? I see that as huge disadvantage.

Mobile phones can be hacked; if you use your Authenticator app to log into an application on your mobile phone, it's by definition no longer two-factor authentication. The basis of that is having a separate device. Having that in a key that cannot be compromised by e.g. being rootable, internet connected, etcetera is an extra layer of security.

The mobile phone is more convenient though, and I also don't know how these things work when you try and log in via a mobile device. For high security access though, like google cloud consoles and such, a policy of not allowing access via mobile phones does make sense. (also because said console is probably not very usable on mobile).

Re: Google Titan Security Key

#12

Post by albntomat0 »

gonvaled wrote: post #7
mtgx wrote: post #4

I think Google uses this same Titan chip for it: https://cloudplatform.googleblog.com/2017/08/Titan-in-depth-... I'm not sure if this is the "hardware security module" they've been touting for Pixel 2 devices, too. I assume this project was spun-off from Project Vault, or at least they re-used some of the ideas/code from that, but it's still a shame we won't be getting the microSD "HSM" anymore. I guess that idea die…

regarding yubico: they talk open, global standards, but then say security can only be met by producing in the USA (and Sweden!). Why should I trust USA produced products?

Looking at the list of IC exports[0], where should they be produced that will be trusted by the vast majority of those who care?

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_integrate...

Re: Google Titan Security Key

#13

Post by raesene9 »

The thing that makes me a bit jumpy about hardware 2FA with things like this or a Yubikey is around what happens if I lose it or it breaks.

It's not so much a problem in a corporate setup (like internally at Google) where you could go to a central admin team to revoke/replace the key.

But if you're a home user using this for a wide variety of sites and the token fails then the failure mode seems to be "go figure out the fallback for every site you use and use that", which could be really painful.

I prefer the, possibly less secure but more flexible option of TOTP applications that let me synch to multiple devices, so the loss of one device isn't very painful.

Re: Google Titan Security Key

#14

Post by simias »

aichi wrote: post #8

Why Google 'sell' this as an advantage over 2FA over mobile phone? In this case it works on computer only, or you have to be at some computer, with mobile app, you can be anywhere? I see that as huge disadvantage.

Security tokens are more secure and can't be as easily fished as phone-based 2FA solutions. It's not about using the key on a mobile phone, it's about replacing phone-based 2FA.

You're right however that their key doesn't seem to have any interface other than USB so it won't be practically usable on smartphones. Yubico has NFC tokens[1] for that use case but it doesn't seem that Google's version offers that yet.

[1] https://www.yubico.com/products/yubikey-for-mobile/

Re: Google Titan Security Key

#15

Post by pliny »

aichi wrote: post #8

Why Google 'sell' this as an advantage over 2FA over mobile phone? In this case it works on computer only, or you have to be at some computer, with mobile app, you can be anywhere? I see that as huge disadvantage.

The yubikey version of this works with phones, you can plug it in if your phone has the appropriate usb port, and it theoretically supports nfc and bluetooth but those rarely seem to work for me. I'm not sure if the google version also supports the wireless protocols but I don't see why you couldn't plug it into your phone.

Re: Google Titan Security Key

#16

Post by aichi »

aichi wrote: post #8

Why Google 'sell' this as an advantage over 2FA over mobile phone? In this case it works on computer only, or you have to be at some computer, with mobile app, you can be anywhere? I see that as huge disadvantage.

All answers above sounds as great explanation! I don't understand mobile 2FA as an app only but also possibility to e.g. being called by system and you have to put some PIN/key over phone.

Re: Google Titan Security Key

#17

Post by pentestercrab »

raesene9 wrote: post #13

The thing that makes me a bit jumpy about hardware 2FA with things like this or a Yubikey is around what happens if I lose it or it breaks. It's not so much a problem in a corporate setup (like internally at Google) where you could go to a central admin team to revoke/replace the key. But if you're a home user using this for a wide variety of sites and the token fails then the failure mode seems to be "go figure out…

If you want U2F with recovery, the Trezor from SatoshiLabs is a great option. Only issue is the cost is a bit higher than most hardware tokens.

Re: Google Titan Security Key

#18

Post by bertil »

raesene9 wrote: post #13

The thing that makes me a bit jumpy about hardware 2FA with things like this or a Yubikey is around what happens if I lose it or it breaks. It's not so much a problem in a corporate setup (like internally at Google) where you could go to a central admin team to revoke/replace the key. But if you're a home user using this for a wide variety of sites and the token fails then the failure mode seems to be "go figure out…

For both cases, what you want to have is a central account that you authenticate to using the key, and that account uses OpenSocial/OAuth-like protocols to grant access to separate services.

That’s how those central teams manage to revoke keys easily.

Re: Google Titan Security Key

#19

Post by suixo »

raesene9 wrote: post #13

The thing that makes me a bit jumpy about hardware 2FA with things like this or a Yubikey is around what happens if I lose it or it breaks. It's not so much a problem in a corporate setup (like internally at Google) where you could go to a central admin team to revoke/replace the key. But if you're a home user using this for a wide variety of sites and the token fails then the failure mode seems to be "go figure out…

In the original U2F spec, I think there was an "answer" to this revocation issue: "enroll a second device for every origin, and keep this one in a safe". This way you can still connect even if you lose the first one.

In practice, well, meh...

Re: Google Titan Security Key

#20

Post by simias »

raesene9 wrote: post #13

The thing that makes me a bit jumpy about hardware 2FA with things like this or a Yubikey is around what happens if I lose it or it breaks. It's not so much a problem in a corporate setup (like internally at Google) where you could go to a central admin team to revoke/replace the key. But if you're a home user using this for a wide variety of sites and the token fails then the failure mode seems to be "go figure out…

I think I'd like a version of this scheme which works a bit like email-based verification: you have a trusted provider (like an email provider today, you can self-host or use any of the many 3rd party hosts) that you use to vouch for your identity. When you want to log into a website you use a certificate authenticating you, the website checks if it's valid with your authority (similar to the current email-based verification on most websites). If you want to change your certificate for any reason you only have to do it with your authority and everything else keeps working as usual. The drawback of course is that you have a single point of failure, if the authority is compromised you're naked in the wild.

IIRC OpenID worked like that but unfortunately it never gained traction. It's a shame really.

More practically I do use a yubikey myself but mostly as a GnuPG smartcard, not for 2FA. I actually have the same key stored on multiple tokens as a backup, so if my current key breaks I just have to fetch an other one. Of course if instead I lose it or it's stolen I'll probably have to generate new keys (even though the PIN should theoretically still protect me) so the problem still exists.

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