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The Finkbeiner Test: A Tool for Writing About Women in their Professions

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Re: The Finkbeiner Test: A Tool for Writing About Women in their Professions

#11

Post by projektir »

crooked-v wrote: post #5
unit91 wrote: post #2

> Take the things that are said about a female subject and flip them around as if they were said about a male. If they sound ridiculous, then chances are good they have no business in the story. Exactly. Every time I read something that fails this test, I can't help but dismiss it as identity politics. If somebody does great work, let's praise the performance. All this focus on male/female, black/white, rich/poor, et…

To me, this sounds like an excuse to pretend that systematic inequality doesn't exist, and thereby imply that not being able to rise above it is a personal failing.

I don't really see why it would imply that. That problem only really shows up if you start treating successful people as gods or somehow fundamentally superior people, which is not really required when writing a scientist bio.

Sometimes not bringing something up is powerful. If you achieved something, would you really want people talking about your relationship status in your bio?

Re: The Finkbeiner Test: A Tool for Writing About Women in their Professions

#12

Post by nuclearburrito »

This is why I hate identity politics and why I believe all jobs for a given role should pay identically. Men/women are created equal but different. Praise people for their merit, not their sex. I know women who can run circles around men in coding and sysadmin work. I sometimes have to remind myself that I'm working with a woman when we're sat together working on something. I just tend to notice that this person is smart, often smarter than me in a given area, and I can learn. One of my favorite team leads is a woman from Ethiopia. Smart, pretty, funny, able to handle the BS some of the guys give her. The guys quickly realize she's better than most of them and they defer to her where her knowledge exceeds their own. Let's be honest, it's refreshing to see women excel in an area where men are usually dominant, and let's not forget, programming in the beginning years was mostly women.

I'm attempting to teach my own teenage daughter some programming basics, not to get her into the industry, but to show her cause and effect, abstract thinking, building something from nothing, critical thinking, etc.

Re: The Finkbeiner Test: A Tool for Writing About Women in their Professions

#13

Post by ghostbrainalpha »

ggg9990 wrote: post #4

Another thing I’ve noticed is articles using large headshots of women for companies where they could use product photos. With men it’s much rarer... they even prefer to run cheesy graphics of “AI” instead of headshots.

That's true, but now your pushing into the territory of marketing.

When you are making compelling images to attract attention its more about creating an effective advertisement than a political agenda.

Re: The Finkbeiner Test: A Tool for Writing About Women in their Professions

#14

Post by crooked-v »

mieseratte wrote: post #7
crooked-v wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me, this sounds like an excuse to pretend that systematic inequality doesn't exist, and thereby imply that not being able to rise above it is a personal failing.

To me it sounds like you don't like anyone who dares challenge your personal orthodoxy.

Systematic inequality is a subject of statistical science, not personal orthodoxy.

A simple example are the various studies that show that "white" resumes get more attention that minority resumes: https://hbswk.hbs.edu/item/minorities-who-whiten-job-resumes...

Re: The Finkbeiner Test: A Tool for Writing About Women in their Professions

#15

Post by brightball »

unit91 wrote: post #2

> Take the things that are said about a female subject and flip them around as if they were said about a male. If they sound ridiculous, then chances are good they have no business in the story. Exactly. Every time I read something that fails this test, I can't help but dismiss it as identity politics. If somebody does great work, let's praise the performance. All this focus on male/female, black/white, rich/poor, et…

Reminds me of the presidential debate gender swap experiment at NYU

https://www.nyu.edu/about/news-publications/news/2017/march/...

Re: The Finkbeiner Test: A Tool for Writing About Women in their Professions

#16

Post by notadoc »

Interesting. It's notable that you read the exact same type of statements emphasizing masculinity when an article mentions a male who is a nurse, teacher, veterinarian, yoga instructor, social worker, or any of the other professions that are dominated by women.

Perhaps it's that, when someone does something slightly outside of the norm or expectation, that becomes a notable storyline or contextual reference.

Re: The Finkbeiner Test: A Tool for Writing About Women in their Professions

#17

Post by BadDebug »

abalashov wrote: post #10

And yet, anyone assuming this position might be wise to ask themselves whether, if the suggestions were actually implemented, many women would be up in arms about a _lack_ of special recognition of their gender-distinctive qualities, "doing it all" and the rest. I'm sure I'll be downvoted, but I'm coming from a place of sincere intellectual commitment to this concern. There is a rift among the feminist-minded about w…

I would think this author is on the fringe, as current society wants gender-equality, not gender-blindness.

Re: The Finkbeiner Test: A Tool for Writing About Women in their Professions

#18

Post by rayiner »

Where this discussion gets confused is that it fails to recognize that there are actually two different issues and two different kinds of articles at issue. To make the discussion neutral, instead of women in science let's talk about startups. There are many (but at least two) kinds of articles about startups. Ones that focus on the technology, and ones that focus on the "human interest" angle. There are articles about Tesla that focus on the limitations of cameras-only versus LIDAR. And there are articles about how Tesla is racing against much bigger and established competitors like Toyota and Volkswagen. The latter kind of article is not a diminution of Tesla's technology, but rather one that focuses on an entirely different sort of topic that might interest readers for different reasons.

There is nothing illegitimate about these human interest articles. Succeeding as a women in a male-dominated profession in fact presents real and unique challenges that merit writing about, just as succeeding as a startup in a field dominated by entrenched incumbents presents challenges worth writing about. Where articles about "X in science" get in trouble is that (1) people care a lot more about the human interest angle than about the science; and (2) journalists aren't up front about what kind of article they are writing, or are themselves confused about what kind of article they are writing.

Re: The Finkbeiner Test: A Tool for Writing About Women in their Professions

#19

Post by bvc35 »

jordigh wrote: post #9
unit91 wrote: post #2

> Take the things that are said about a female subject and flip them around as if they were said about a male. If they sound ridiculous, then chances are good they have no business in the story. Exactly. Every time I read something that fails this test, I can't help but dismiss it as identity politics. If somebody does great work, let's praise the performance. All this focus on male/female, black/white, rich/poor, et…

The article isn't saying that we shouldn't focus on women in science or that we shouldn't be writing articles about them. It says we shouldn't emphasise stereotypes about their femininity, but it still talks about how we have to address the inherent sexism that exists. > The issue, she says, is that when you emphasize a woman’s sex, you inevitably end up dismissing her science. That's the point. Write about women. We…

Why write about women specifically unless your intention is to emphasize the accomplishments of their sex in the field? This sounds a lot like "write about women more, but don't say you're writing about someone because she's a woman."

Re: The Finkbeiner Test: A Tool for Writing About Women in their Professions

#20

Post by notadoc »

nuclearburrito wrote: post #12

This is why I hate identity politics and why I believe all jobs for a given role should pay identically. Men/women are created equal but different. Praise people for their merit, not their sex. I know women who can run circles around men in coding and sysadmin work. I sometimes have to remind myself that I'm working with a woman when we're sat together working on something. I just tend to notice that this person is s…

> Men/women are created equal but different. Praise people for their merit, not their sex.

Many people will find those mere statements to be offensive and inflammatory. You must know that we have reached a point where large segments of society find acknowledging achievement and/or biology to be a cultural faux pas and highly controversial.

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