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As the SpaceX steamroller surges, European rocket industry vows to resist

arstechnica.com

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Re: As the SpaceX steamroller surges, European rocket industry vows to resist

#11

Post by JumpCrisscross »

rdtsc wrote: post #10

> Even, so, Charmeau rejects comparisons to SpaceX, because he maintains that the company is heavily subsidized by the US government. Isn't ESA subsidized by the member governments? I'd understand if the criticism was coming from a private entity and they'd be complaining about SpaceX getting preferential treatment, but coming from a state sponsored agency it seems odd.

> Isn't ESA subsidized by the member governments?

"ArianeGroup is subsidized by its member governments." Furthermore, "SpaceX does not have a monopoly on [American] launches, as Arianespace does in Europe" and "had to compete with the US-based United Launch Alliance from the beginning to break that company’s monopoly on military and civil space missions" [1].

[1] Ars Technica

Re: As the SpaceX steamroller surges, European rocket industry vows to resist

#12

Post by Quinner »

I'm always stunned by the degree to which "resisting" consists of haughty dismissiveness of SpaceX and whining about subsidies (which Arianespace itself receives in spades). I wonder if these people will be able to swallow their pride when SpaceX eats their lunch and they have to go work for the Americans.

Re: As the SpaceX steamroller surges, European rocket industry vows to resist

#13

Post by rory096 »

drcode wrote: post #4

I'm encouraged to see that their "vow to resist" seems to mainly involve trying to outperform SpaceX, as opposed to asking for legislation/regulation to give their rocket program special status. EDIT: At least that was the gist of this article, it seems like other sources suggest they may pursue legislative avenues as well.

Stéphane Israël has repeatedly called for European governments to stop competing any satellite launches and guarantee them all for Arianespace, as well as to increase direct subsidies.

http://www.france24.com/en/20150620-interview-stephane-israe...

http://aviationweek.com/space/arianespace-esa-we-need-help

Alain Charmeau has as well:

>Even as Charmeau decries what he calls subsidies for SpaceX from the US government, he admits that Ariane cannot exist without guaranteed contracts purchased by European governments. To make the Ariane 6 vehicle viable, Charmeau said Ariane needs five launches in total for 2021 and eight guaranteed launches for 2022.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2018/05/ariane-chief-seems-f...

Re: As the SpaceX steamroller surges, European rocket industry vows to resist

#14

Post by trothamel »

cryptonector wrote: post #9
AimForTheBushes wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SpaceX and other low cost space companies. If I read the article correctly, they plan on doing this by not innovating.

Par for the course for the EU.

Clearly their response will be to declare https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/2018/more-than-11-milli... to be against the GDPR, and fine the launch company.

Re: As the SpaceX steamroller surges, European rocket industry vows to resist

#15

Post by mschuster91 »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #3

> if Europe ever did develop a reusable rocket, one that could fly all the missions in a year, this would be unhelpful politically. What would the engine and booster factories sprinkled across Europe do if they built one rocket and then had 11 months off?

This problem will also bite the US launch industry. Hard.

Once SpaceX has proven they can do safe crewed flights and Blue Origin goes beyond testing flights, why is there a reason to pay the huge ULA markup any more?

ULA, as well as Airbus, has a problem: they're constantly being meddled with by politicians without any idea what they're doing and decide stuff that's totally unreasonable from an economical point but helpful for their (or their party's) reelections. Airbus employs 130k people, Boeing 140k and Lockheed 100k, and in addition there are a lot of people in the supplier companies. That's a lot of voters, and the companies are often enough big employers on a regional/local level.

Which means: SpaceX and Blue Origin will conquer the entire commercial sector plus an enormous amount of US government work. EU-founded projects will (politically mandated) stick to Airbus, but the political inability of Airbus to innovate will lead everything else go to SpaceX/BO. And the taxpayer will have to "save" them... or have to deal with hundreds of thousands people out of jobs.

Re: As the SpaceX steamroller surges, European rocket industry vows to resist

#16

Post by MrBuddyCasino »

rory096 wrote: post #13
drcode wrote: post #4

I'm encouraged to see that their "vow to resist" seems to mainly involve trying to outperform SpaceX, as opposed to asking for legislation/regulation to give their rocket program special status. EDIT: At least that was the gist of this article, it seems like other sources suggest they may pursue legislative avenues as well.

Stéphane Israël has repeatedly called for European governments to stop competing any satellite launches and guarantee them all for Arianespace, as well as to increase direct subsidies. http://www.france24.com/en/20150620-interview-stephane-israe... http://aviationweek.com/space/arianespace-esa-we-need-help Alain Charmeau has as well: >Even as Charmeau decries what he calls subsidies for SpaceX from the US government,…

The typical french reaction. I hope Germany will push back. Anyone remember the European search engine competitor "Quaero", another stillborn EU project?

Re: As the SpaceX steamroller surges, European rocket industry vows to resist

#17

Post by simion314 »

AimForTheBushes wrote: post #7
yellowcherry wrote: post #6

I have no idea what this headline is supposed to mean. "Vows to resist" Resist what, exactly?

SpaceX and other low cost space companies. If I read the article correctly, they plan on doing this by not innovating.

Isn't the article mentioning that they are working on 2 new rockets and that the plan is to not compete in SpaceX niche?

I assume that we do not know that much about the innovation due to much smaller PR budgets.

Re: As the SpaceX steamroller surges, European rocket industry vows to resist

#18

Post by kurthr »

drcode wrote: post #4

I'm encouraged to see that their "vow to resist" seems to mainly involve trying to outperform SpaceX, as opposed to asking for legislation/regulation to give their rocket program special status. EDIT: At least that was the gist of this article, it seems like other sources suggest they may pursue legislative avenues as well.

As I understand it, they don't have to ask for regulation since they already are state subsidized and a monopoly in Europe. However, they may have to culturally justify it to retain that position.

Re: As the SpaceX steamroller surges, European rocket industry vows to resist

#19

Post by hayd »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #5
drcode wrote: post #4

I'm encouraged to see that their "vow to resist" seems to mainly involve trying to outperform SpaceX, as opposed to asking for legislation/regulation to give their rocket program special status. EDIT: At least that was the gist of this article, it seems like other sources suggest they may pursue legislative avenues as well.

> their "vow to resist" seems to mainly involve trying to outperform SpaceX The planned Ariane 6 is cost uncompetitive with the Falcon 9 and variable cost and mass uncompetitive with the Falcon Heavy. There are no plans for a European reusable. The “our mission is different...our culture is different” comment implies a regulatory, not technological, solution.

They are putting payloads into space, so it's the same mission. What the hell does "culture" have to do with anything? Really, there's a culture against re-useablility? No.

It's fine (or at least honest) to admit they're a protectionist block and are looking into regulation to ensure French contacts are safe.

But the mission is the same (put things into space), and the culture is irrelevant.

Re: As the SpaceX steamroller surges, European rocket industry vows to resist

#20

Post by ffsc »

kurthr wrote: post #18
drcode wrote: post #4

I'm encouraged to see that their "vow to resist" seems to mainly involve trying to outperform SpaceX, as opposed to asking for legislation/regulation to give their rocket program special status. EDIT: At least that was the gist of this article, it seems like other sources suggest they may pursue legislative avenues as well.

As I understand it, they don't have to ask for regulation since they already are state subsidized and a monopoly in Europe. However, they may have to culturally justify it to retain that position.

Not necessarily a monopoly. European states can still launch on other nations rockets. However, Arianespace is pushing for "European First" legislation to keep institutional payloads on domestic launchers.
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