Why standard Indonesian is not spoken throughout Indonesia • Hacker News Board

Re: Why standard Indonesian is not spoken throughout Indonesia

#11

Post by dmckeon » Wed, Jul 04, 2018, 4:54 PM UTC

shp0ngle wrote: post #7

rayiner wrote: post #5

People in America really don't appreciate the blessing of having a single (nearly) uniformly spoken language. Being able to drop in anywhere in a country of 300+ million people and being able to converse with the locals (not just communicate , but convey your deepest thoughts)--it's a benefit the vast majority of people in the world simply do not have. This article touches on something I've been thinking a lot about…

Isn't Mandarin Chinese understood on all China, from Xinjiang to Canton?

Written, mostly, but spoken, not so much.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_language

Re: Why standard Indonesian is not spoken throughout Indonesia

#12

Post by lainga » Wed, Jul 04, 2018, 4:56 PM UTC

shp0ngle wrote: post #7

rayiner wrote: post #5

People in America really don't appreciate the blessing of having a single (nearly) uniformly spoken language. Being able to drop in anywhere in a country of 300+ million people and being able to converse with the locals (not just communicate , but convey your deepest thoughts)--it's a benefit the vast majority of people in the world simply do not have. This article touches on something I've been thinking a lot about…

Isn't Mandarin Chinese understood on all China, from Xinjiang to Canton?

Yes, but it exists alongside other dialects spoken locally which are sort of mutually intelligible, but in some cases only when written (cf. Cantonese).

It's analogous to large parts of the US outside the Northeast Corridor using various dialects of American Sign Language, which is written the exact same as American English, but only among people from their home city, and also having varying degrees of command over spoken English.

Re: Why standard Indonesian is not spoken throughout Indonesia

#13

Post by foldr » Wed, Jul 04, 2018, 4:57 PM UTC

simias wrote: post #9

iafisher wrote: post #3

Claims about the relative simplicity or complexity of different languages are rarely grounded in actual linguistic evidence. Languages comprise so many parts that it's not even clear what the basis of comparison could be: is English, a language with highly restricted word order but without grammatical case marked on most nouns, more complex than Russian, a language with comparatively free word order but a highly arti…

I don't quite understand your comment in relation with the article. The main subject isn't the complexity or simplicity of the language but rather that it's not effectively used by the population at large which makes it a relatively inefficient tool for communication. He mentions that the language "has fewer words than most languages" but that's not his main point. This text is also clearly not meant as a treatise of…

No-one disputes that some writing systems are more complex than others, but statements like an "objectively more complex phonology" or "slightly trickier grammar" are pretty difficult to cash out in precise terms.

We know that kids learn all of these languages at the same pace, which suggests that the complexity differences between spoken languages are not particularly significant from the point of view of someone who doesn't already speak a language.

Re: Why standard Indonesian is not spoken throughout Indonesia

#14

Post by curtis » Wed, Jul 04, 2018, 5:00 PM UTC

Some things I learned when I was in Singapore and Indonesia about 10 years ago:

- Our Singaporean host had business dealings in Indonesia and he said he could get by just relying on his Malay language skills, so it seems that Malay and Bahasa Indonesia have a decent degree of mutual intelligibility.

- In one of the national museums we ran into an American professor who had been teaching part time in Indonesia for many years. Among other things, he mentioned that when Indonesia was founded, the government created a standard vocabulary for the language at the same time. He thought that that was one of the smartest things they'd done.

- One Indonesian woman that I spoke with (who I presume was Javanese) mentioned that one of the benefits of Bahasa Indonesia was that the Javanese in one village might not be mutually intelligible (in the practical sense, anyway) with the Javanese spoken in another village a few miles away. But you could always switch to Bahasa Indonesia to communicate.

- The word "Bahasa" means "language", and in Indonesian languages always seemed to be prefixed with ""Bahasa", e.g. "bahasa Indonesia", "bahasa Inggris", "bahasa Jerman". However, I recall several times hearing Indonesians using just the word "bahasa" when clearly referring to the Indonesian language. This was speaking in English though, so it might not be representative of how they'd say it in Indonesian.

Re: Why standard Indonesian is not spoken throughout Indonesia

#15

Post by notahacker » Wed, Jul 04, 2018, 5:05 PM UTC

iafisher wrote: post #3

Claims about the relative simplicity or complexity of different languages are rarely grounded in actual linguistic evidence. Languages comprise so many parts that it's not even clear what the basis of comparison could be: is English, a language with highly restricted word order but without grammatical case marked on most nouns, more complex than Russian, a language with comparatively free word order but a highly arti…

I'm not even convinced the basic argument that a language with 40-odd million people regarding it as their primary language is not widely spoken is true (never mind the ludicrously false clickbaity "no-one speaks" headline). Sure, more Indonesians speak other languages at home and with fellow native speakers because they're the local languages of particular areas, some of which were more widely spoken than the Malay dialect Bahasa Indonesian was based on in the first place, or else closely identified with their ethnic and cultural backgrounds. And the fact that Bahasa Indonesia is the main language of domestic politics and education (and largely irrelevant outside Indonesia) means that people who speak the languages of their ancestors are bound to view speaking it instead of their local dialect as stuffy and formal regardless of its linguistic characteristics (see also: other multilingual countries) and bound to create slang versions that incorporate their local words which aren't particularly intelligible to foreigners schooled in the classroom version.

And I don't think even English, usually the sole language spoken by native speakers and definitely not lacking in standard phrases and vocabulary, would pass the author's litmus test of "do native speakers in different regions of England all speak it in everyday conversation in a manner so close to the textbooks a foreigner can easily understand it"

Re: Why standard Indonesian is not spoken throughout Indonesia

#16

Post by bfred_it » Wed, Jul 04, 2018, 5:07 PM UTC

iafisher wrote: post #3

Claims about the relative simplicity or complexity of different languages are rarely grounded in actual linguistic evidence. Languages comprise so many parts that it's not even clear what the basis of comparison could be: is English, a language with highly restricted word order but without grammatical case marked on most nouns, more complex than Russian, a language with comparatively free word order but a highly arti…

Some languages are objectively easier than others, at least in part.

Latin languages like Italian, Spanish and French have literally dozens of conjugations[0] where English usually handles all tenses and quantity with "will, would, did, had, -ed" plus a handful of irregular verbs, which themselves have two words to learn each (unlike Italian irregular verbs [1])

Spanish and Italian are only easier to read and write since their spelling is regular for the most part.

[0]: https://www.wordreference.com/conj/ItVerbs.aspx?v=sbottonare [1]: https://www.wordreference.com/conj/ItVerbs.aspx?v=andare

Re: Why standard Indonesian is not spoken throughout Indonesia

#17

Post by imjustsaying » Wed, Jul 04, 2018, 5:10 PM UTC

shp0ngle wrote: post #7

rayiner wrote: post #5

People in America really don't appreciate the blessing of having a single (nearly) uniformly spoken language. Being able to drop in anywhere in a country of 300+ million people and being able to converse with the locals (not just communicate , but convey your deepest thoughts)--it's a benefit the vast majority of people in the world simply do not have. This article touches on something I've been thinking a lot about…

Isn't Mandarin Chinese understood on all China, from Xinjiang to Canton?

Glad you asked, as this article reminded me of that. Outside of Northern China, where Mandarin is original dialect, the answer is no, Mandarin is not understood throughout the country on a level that English is in the US.

It's a kind of second language for many, with younger generations generally being more fluent than their elders. Like the Indonesian dialect, it's somewhat forced by recent government mandate except for the North where it's from.

The frequency of overhearing people asking each other for more clarification showed me that language barriers existed, even among university students. English by contrast is much more consistent and far less ambiguous among accents and dialects across the globe.

At first when people complimented me on my English, I didn't really understand why until I realized most Chinese are not fluent in Mandarin in the way I am fluent in English. It seemed they thought the same fluency disparity would exist among US natives with English.

Re: Why standard Indonesian is not spoken throughout Indonesia

#18

Post by arghwhat » Wed, Jul 04, 2018, 5:11 PM UTC

shp0ngle wrote: post #7

rayiner wrote: post #5

People in America really don't appreciate the blessing of having a single (nearly) uniformly spoken language. Being able to drop in anywhere in a country of 300+ million people and being able to converse with the locals (not just communicate , but convey your deepest thoughts)--it's a benefit the vast majority of people in the world simply do not have. This article touches on something I've been thinking a lot about…

Isn't Mandarin Chinese understood on all China, from Xinjiang to Canton?

Think of Mandarin like English. Many regions only have it as second language, with not everyone speaking it well (and just like with English, younger generations do better on average). In regions where it is the first language, it is usually a dialect differing from Standard Mandarin.

Canton (guangzhou) speaks Cantonese, Shanghai speaks Shanghainese, and so it goes, with none of these languages having much at all to do with Mandarin (The Shanghainese use of tones is closer to Scandinavian languages than other Chinese languages!). In Hong Kong, Mandarin would be your third language in school, unused in public except to communicate with visiting mainlanders.

Writing is basically isolated from the spoken language, so there the primary concern is that some areas use traditional Chinese, whereas others use simplified.

Re: Why standard Indonesian is not spoken throughout Indonesia

#19

Post by foldr » Wed, Jul 04, 2018, 5:12 PM UTC

bfred_it wrote: post #16

iafisher wrote: post #3

Claims about the relative simplicity or complexity of different languages are rarely grounded in actual linguistic evidence. Languages comprise so many parts that it's not even clear what the basis of comparison could be: is English, a language with highly restricted word order but without grammatical case marked on most nouns, more complex than Russian, a language with comparatively free word order but a highly arti…

Some languages are objectively easier than others, at least in part. Latin languages like Italian, Spanish and French have literally dozens of conjugations[0] where English usually handles all tenses and quantity with "will, would, did, had, -ed" plus a handful of irregular verbs, which themselves have two words to learn each (unlike Italian irregular verbs [1]) Spanish and Italian are only easier to read and write s…

>Latin languages like Italian, Spanish and French have literally dozens of conjugations[0] where English usually handles all tenses and quantity with "will, would, did, had, -ed" plus a handful of irregular verbs, which themselves have two words to learn each (unlike Italian irregular verbs [1])

That's just one point of comparison, though. You can also identify features of English which appear to be more complex. For example, English has phrasal verbs, two forms of the possessive, VP ellipsis and antecedent contained deletion, a greater number of nominalization constructions, a greater number of ECM constructions, etc. etc. No-one has come up with any sensible measure of complexity according to which any of these languages is clearly more complex than another.

>Spanish and Italian are only easier to read and write since their spelling is regular for the most part.

No-one claims that all writing systems are equally simple. Indeed, some are easier to learn than others.

Re: Why standard Indonesian is not spoken throughout Indonesia

#20

Post by curtis » Wed, Jul 04, 2018, 5:14 PM UTC

The article's premise is that it seems like nobody in Indonesia speaks Bahasa Indonesia well, because it's always a second language. I can't find a good reference right now, but I think that's wrong. I'm under the impression that in Jakarta and the surrounding areas (probably tens of millions of people) Bahasa Indonesia really is spoken as a first language. I think this area has historically been Malay-speaking anyway, and modern Indonesian is very closely related to Malay, so this wouldn't be a big stretch.