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Spain leads the world in organ donation. What’s stopping other countries?

mosaicscience.com

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Re: Spain leads the world in organ donation. What’s stopping other countries?

#11

Post by cabinguy »

krageon wrote: post #6
karmaseed wrote: post #4

Organ donation attracts a lot of scum elements and dubious practices which require government policy frameworks and oversight. Then the hospitals need to confirm to a lot of paperwork/trail which is cumbersome. If i’m waiting for a kidney, i can wait in a queue to receive it from someone who’s dying or i can “bring my own donor”, maybe a relative. Is the relative really related to me or have i lured him/her with mone…

What is the problem exactly with buying a kidney?

This isn't a very popular opinion, but I agree. I feel that people should be able to become donors in exchange for some sort of payment to heirs (kind of like life insurance). The doctors and hospitals are making money from life saving transplant surgery, why not the donors? I think the waiting list would get real short, real quick if this happened. (Note: I'm a registered donor)

Re: Spain leads the world in organ donation. What’s stopping other countries?

#13

Post by dogma1138 »

grecy wrote: post #10

My first thought has always been to just make it mandatory, or at the very least opt-out instead of opt-in. I realize those are both very controversial, so I wonder why we don't have a monetary incentive. i.e. We will pay $1000 for every organ of yours we take to a person you nominate.

Some countries have it opt-out on gaining a driver’s license. The family however can always override it.

There is another factor and is cause of death and age which directly is tied to doner suitability as well as if there is infrastructure to support organ donation across the nation and other process related issues.

I would strongly suspect that Spain managed to solve the infrastructure and process related problems rather than it simply being a cultural factor or that Spain has somewhat more non-toxicity, cancer/congenital or massive trauma deaths of otherwise healthy people between the age of and 20-45.

Re: Spain leads the world in organ donation. What’s stopping other countries?

#14

Post by QasimK »

perl4ever wrote: post #9

I think what's stopping other countries is that only one can be at the top of a relative ranking.

But there’s nothing that stops countries from being within 5% of each other at top of that ranking. The main point is the large difference between the countries.

Re: Spain leads the world in organ donation. What’s stopping other countries?

#15

Post by singularity2001 »

grecy wrote: post #10

My first thought has always been to just make it mandatory, or at the very least opt-out instead of opt-in. I realize those are both very controversial, so I wonder why we don't have a monetary incentive. i.e. We will pay $1000 for every organ of yours we take to a person you nominate.

Yes make it opt-out by law, with central database and (formless) opt-out pass, which people can carry around. If neither is found relatives need to be contacted.

Re: Spain leads the world in organ donation. What’s stopping other countries?

#16

Post by LeifCarrotson »

grecy wrote: post #10

My first thought has always been to just make it mandatory, or at the very least opt-out instead of opt-in. I realize those are both very controversial, so I wonder why we don't have a monetary incentive. i.e. We will pay $1000 for every organ of yours we take to a person you nominate.

A monetary incentive results in people getting blackmailed into selling their organs and nominating the thugs as the recipients of the money.

Re: Spain leads the world in organ donation. What’s stopping other countries?

#17

Post by dmm »

grecy wrote: post #10

My first thought has always been to just make it mandatory, or at the very least opt-out instead of opt-in. I realize those are both very controversial, so I wonder why we don't have a monetary incentive. i.e. We will pay $1000 for every organ of yours we take to a person you nominate.

If you ask a lay person from any human culture how do you know when a person is dead I think you would get similar answers along the lines of:

- no heartbeat - no breath - their body temperature falls to ambient temperature - blood pools on lower half of body - onset of decomposition - etc

When organs are removed from a person for donation, none of those conditions apply. In order to accommodate this fact the concept of brain death was created. But really brain death is an example of taking a word representing an ancient and well understood concept, death, and applying it to something completely new.

Really it's a form of deception. I don't think it's a malicious deception but when the doctor comes in and says your loved one is brain dead that person is not dead in the ways understood by a typical person.

I'm in favor of organ donation in general but until the medical community has some very frank discussions about the medical definitions of death I'm opposed to any form of mandatory or opt-out organ donation.

Re: Spain leads the world in organ donation. What’s stopping other countries?

#18

Post by Waterluvian »

dmm wrote: post #17
grecy wrote: post #10

My first thought has always been to just make it mandatory, or at the very least opt-out instead of opt-in. I realize those are both very controversial, so I wonder why we don't have a monetary incentive. i.e. We will pay $1000 for every organ of yours we take to a person you nominate.

If you ask a lay person from any human culture how do you know when a person is dead I think you would get similar answers along the lines of: - no heartbeat - no breath - their body temperature falls to ambient temperature - blood pools on lower half of body - onset of decomposition - etc When organs are removed from a person for donation, none of those conditions apply. In order to accommodate this fact the concept…

This isn't what a physician described to me. They waited there and did all these tests for death. Not just waiting for the heart to have stopped but for there to be no response to pressing hard on the fingernail and such. It sounded very much like they do absolutely wait until the person is deceased in all meaningful forms.

He once said that this team of expert transplant specialists who flew in are just waiting and waiting because this one person's heart would just keep starting back up on its own, so he had to be exceptionally careful to pronounce him actually dead.

Re: Spain leads the world in organ donation. What’s stopping other countries?

#19

Post by icebraining »

wmccullough wrote: post #3

I think this is great for them. I think that depending on national culture, a person may want to die with what they came into this world with. I know that some world religions are against the practice. I say this with full realization that some folks will read that and think “how selfish!!” Regardless of any of our beliefs, organ donation is a very personal choice. Personally, I wouldn’t go about the issue by shaming…

a person may want to die with what they came into this world with.

Reminds me of the grandmother in Uri Orlev's book, who insisted on burning every fingernail clipping, as otherwise their souls would be stuck on Earth seeking for them after death.

In the end, nobody old enough to make that decision dies with what they came with - the body changes too much over the years. But then again, we allow everyone to destroy their organs with drugs, dangerous sports, sitting for most of the day, etc. It would be hypocritical to deny others the equivalent choice.

Re: Spain leads the world in organ donation. What’s stopping other countries?

#20

Post by icebraining »

croon wrote: post #7
krageon wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the problem exactly with buying a kidney?

Money is persuasive, but can also buy coercive. If there are no boundaries or rule structures, then the incentives often (always?) bleed into some involved party not having a choice, or a Hobson's choice.

Is having an Hobson's choice worse than having no choice at all?

Someone having to choose between selling a kidney or starving is terrible. But the solution shouldn't be to deny the first option - that just leaves starving. It should be to give them a third option.

That said, obviously "no rules" would still be dangerous, but no legal sale is done without any rules.

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