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Macedonia Agrees to Change Its Name to End Bitter Dispute with Greece

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Re: Macedonia Agrees to Change Its Name to End Bitter Dispute with Greece

#11

Post by pavlov »

chadash wrote: post #6

This is pay-walled, but here's a summary: The country we now call "Macedonia" (i.e. The Republic of Macedonia) was formed in 1991 after Yugoslavia broke up. Greece didn't like the name, because "Macedonia" was already the name of a large region in Northern Greece. This would be similar to a region of Quebec bordering the US breaking away from Canada and calling itself Maine. Some Greeks apparently felt that the Repub…

Instead of Maine, you can find a better analogy at the opposite end of the United States.

There’s a Mexican state named Baja California and a US state named simply California. Exact same thing as this Macedonia business.

Re: Macedonia Agrees to Change Its Name to End Bitter Dispute with Greece

#12

Post by whatever1 »

mkempe wrote: post #8
whatever1 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because their main goal is to differentiate as much as possible from Bulgaria.

I could understand them wanting to mark their differences from Serbia, but Bulgaria was the reference point for the emergence of Macedonian nationalism when the Ottomans were pushed out. Do you have references for such anti-Bulgarian sentiment?

Quoting Wikipedia [1]: "The Balkan Wars (1912–1913) and World War I (1914–1918) left Ottoman Macedonia divided between Greece, Serbia, Bulgaria, and Albania and resulted in significant changes in its ethnic composition. The immediate effect of the partition of Ottoman Macedonia were the nationalistic campaigns in areas under Serbian and Greek administration, which expelled Bulgarian churchmen and teachers and closed Bulgarian schools and churches. As a consequence a sizable part of the Slavic population of Greek and Serbian Macedonia fled to Bulgaria or was resettled there by virtue of a population exchange agreements. The Bulgarian population in Vardar Banovina was regarded as "Southern Serbs" and a policy of Serbianization was implemented. Within Greece, the Southern Macedonians were designated "Slavophone Greeks".

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_Bulgarians

Re: Macedonia Agrees to Change Its Name to End Bitter Dispute with Greece

#13

Post by interdrift »

mkempe wrote: post #8
whatever1 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because their main goal is to differentiate as much as possible from Bulgaria.

I could understand them wanting to mark their differences from Serbia, but Bulgaria was the reference point for the emergence of Macedonian nationalism when the Ottomans were pushed out. Do you have references for such anti-Bulgarian sentiment?

Well, I'm Bulgarian, there's much hatred as they like to call us tatars and all kinds of things. Not really very nice, considering they have the same genes as ours, same names, same language(except for a few serb add-ins). Also, they would rather be absorbed by Albania, than join their blood brothers :)

Re: Macedonia Agrees to Change Its Name to End Bitter Dispute with Greece

#14

Post by pavlov »

mkempe wrote: post #10
pavlov wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should Massachusetts change its name because the Massachusett people are not an ethnic majority there? Just like US states, most European borders are not drawn according to ethnic groups, and their names are similarly historical rather than descriptive. The nation state is a 19th century fantasy.

Are there three other "Massachusetts"-named states bordering the current Massachusetts? [edit] Maine is not called "North Massachusetts". As for your belief that European borders are unrelated to ethnic/cultural distinctions, do you know much about Europe? [edit: blocked from replying] Were there truly no pre-19th century differences between the peoples and cultures in Finland, Norway, Sweden, and Russia? and no-pre…

That was in response to your suggestion of “Slav Macedonia”.

But there’s certainly a “California” both in the USA and Mexico and it’s not confusing anyone.

I was born in Finland and have also lived in France.

(Edit: I see you replied to me by editing the parent post, but it makes the conversation impossible to follow if we both do that.)

Re: Macedonia Agrees to Change Its Name to End Bitter Dispute with Greece

#15

Post by baron816 »

pavlov wrote: post #11
chadash wrote: post #6

This is pay-walled, but here's a summary: The country we now call "Macedonia" (i.e. The Republic of Macedonia) was formed in 1991 after Yugoslavia broke up. Greece didn't like the name, because "Macedonia" was already the name of a large region in Northern Greece. This would be similar to a region of Quebec bordering the US breaking away from Canada and calling itself Maine. Some Greeks apparently felt that the Repub…

Instead of Maine, you can find a better analogy at the opposite end of the United States. There’s a Mexican state named Baja California and a US state named simply California. Exact same thing as this Macedonia business.

There’s also a state north of Mexico called New Mexico.

Re: Macedonia Agrees to Change Its Name to End Bitter Dispute with Greece

#16

Post by pwinnski »

pavlov wrote: post #11
chadash wrote: post #6

This is pay-walled, but here's a summary: The country we now call "Macedonia" (i.e. The Republic of Macedonia) was formed in 1991 after Yugoslavia broke up. Greece didn't like the name, because "Macedonia" was already the name of a large region in Northern Greece. This would be similar to a region of Quebec bordering the US breaking away from Canada and calling itself Maine. Some Greeks apparently felt that the Repub…

Instead of Maine, you can find a better analogy at the opposite end of the United States. There’s a Mexican state named Baja California and a US state named simply California. Exact same thing as this Macedonia business.

Except the "Baja" in this case (or its lack in the USA) is like the compromise, "North" Macedonia.

The situations would be more analogous if the Mexican state were called simply "California" or the US state were called "Baja California."

Re: Macedonia Agrees to Change Its Name to End Bitter Dispute with Greece

#17

Post by forinti »

pavlov wrote: post #11
chadash wrote: post #6

This is pay-walled, but here's a summary: The country we now call "Macedonia" (i.e. The Republic of Macedonia) was formed in 1991 after Yugoslavia broke up. Greece didn't like the name, because "Macedonia" was already the name of a large region in Northern Greece. This would be similar to a region of Quebec bordering the US breaking away from Canada and calling itself Maine. Some Greeks apparently felt that the Repub…

Instead of Maine, you can find a better analogy at the opposite end of the United States. There’s a Mexican state named Baja California and a US state named simply California. Exact same thing as this Macedonia business.

I think this analogy shows that names don't really matter: military superiority does.

Re: Macedonia Agrees to Change Its Name to End Bitter Dispute with Greece

#18

Post by justboxing »

chadash wrote: post #6

This is pay-walled, but here's a summary: The country we now call "Macedonia" (i.e. The Republic of Macedonia) was formed in 1991 after Yugoslavia broke up. Greece didn't like the name, because "Macedonia" was already the name of a large region in Northern Greece. This would be similar to a region of Quebec bordering the US breaking away from Canada and calling itself Maine. Some Greeks apparently felt that the Repub…

Clutter-free, paywall bypass. https://outline.com/8tASn6

Re: Macedonia Agrees to Change Its Name to End Bitter Dispute with Greece

#19

Post by everdev »

chadash wrote: post #6

This is pay-walled, but here's a summary: The country we now call "Macedonia" (i.e. The Republic of Macedonia) was formed in 1991 after Yugoslavia broke up. Greece didn't like the name, because "Macedonia" was already the name of a large region in Northern Greece. This would be similar to a region of Quebec bordering the US breaking away from Canada and calling itself Maine. Some Greeks apparently felt that the Repub…

Just the name evoked fears of territorial ambitions or is there history of "North Macedonia" and "Greek Macedonia" being unified?

And did Greece suggest "North Macedonia"? If I was worried about territorial ambitions, I don't think "North" would allay my fears.

Re: Macedonia Agrees to Change Its Name to End Bitter Dispute with Greece

#20

Post by stoic_beard »

salex89 wrote: post #5
mkempe wrote: post #2

Naming themselves "North Macedonia" kind of implies that they are strongly connected to the other three Macedonia (administrative) regions of Greece (Western, Central, Eastern). The reason they're not going to join Greece is that there are no ethnic Greeks there, so why not call themselves Slav Macedonia instead? [added after downvotes] what is wrong with asking why "North" is the chosen distinction? it seems that th…

I can only guess because around a quarter of the population is Albanian, and they currently (and probably will also in the future) constitute the parliamentary majority. The Albanian population is currently in a surge, and Albanians don't really like to be mixed up with Slavs...

"Around a quarter of the population is Albanian" - is this also your educated guess, or something you "read" online?

The FACT is that the last Census was done in 2002. According to conservative estimates pulled from the Health Ministry, there are less than 20% of Albanians currently residing on the territory of Macedonia.

And a little free lesson in history for you: The Slavs you are referring to, in the 6th century did in fact invade and conquer present day Macedonia and whole of Greece, all the way down to Peloponnesus. Byzantine historians stated that the Macedonians did not disappear with the Slavic invasion but continued to exist. In the 10th century Salonica is described as the "largest city of the Macedonians".

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