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A dozen Google employees quit over military drone project

arstechnica.com

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Re: A dozen Google employees quit over military drone project

#11

Post by DINKDINK »

debt wrote: post #6

I'm staunchly opposed to war, but understand it's unfortunate necessity under certain extreme circumstances. If these types of projects make war machines more precise overall, they may actually decrease overall collateral damage and reduce the total time war is waged which could cause less lives to be lost during war. Until us humans can collectively overcome the various problems that cause war, might be worth it for…

Your argument is: "By making war more efficient/effective, we will reduce its use."

Say a government only has nuclear bombs in its arsenal and they really want an enemy of the state dead. Do you think they're willing to nuke an entire city to kill one person?

Now imagine a government has electronic kill switches. Imagine it being almost like The Matrix, they can just flip your life off at the flick of a button. Do you think they willing to just flick off the lives of anyone who they don't like?

You're effectively arguing that the latter is better than the former. Societies use more of a technology the far down the learning curve development goes and the cheaper the technology is. If there is no cost to violence, violence will be endless.

Re: A dozen Google employees quit over military drone project

#12

Post by manfredo »

> "If ethical action on the part of tech companies requires consideration of who might benefit from a technology and who might be harmed," the letter reads, "we can say with certainty that no topic deserves more sober reflection—no technology has higher stakes—than algorithms meant to target and kill at a distance and without public accountability,”

My understanding from the reading I've done is that this project is to analyze drone video after it's collected, to automate tasks like picking out when people enter and exit buildings and to read the license plates off cars. If that understanding is correct then this quote seems disingenuous. Google's project is no more designed to "Target and kill at a distance" than the designers of the drone's camera, or it's engine. Arguably even less than those, since those components are in use when drone actually launches strikes. Google's project only comes into play after drones have returned and they have time to crunch the data.

Re: A dozen Google employees quit over military drone project

#13

Post by davidf18 »

I wonder how many of those Googler's who objected to the development of weapon systems have served in combat positions fighting in Iraq or Afghanistan?

I'm guessing not many which is a reason why it is important for firms such as Google to prioritize the hiring of combat vets (besides the fact that they risked their lives to serve our country).

For those who have not served in combat or lost a friend or relative that served in combat, saving lives with drone technology is too abstract.

The drones are very effective at killing terrorists and technology which improves the effectiveness of killing terrorists and enemy combatants (and thus saving American lives) is a good thing.

In Israel, both men and women alike are drafted and the women can serve in combat positions if they desire. Men serve on one month reserve duty until they are 40. Some of these men have been educated as engineers and they understand first-hand the importance of developing technology to save the lives of combat soldiers.

This is something firms like Google are missing: there seems to be little empathy for US military soldiers who are risking their lives defending our nation and developing of technologies to save their lives.

Re: A dozen Google employees quit over military drone project

#14

Post by jessaustin »

option2 wrote: post #7

Kudos to those who is ready to stand for their principles. If you are at G and thinking whether you should resign or not, remembers this - the market for AI talent is super hot. You will immediately find lots of great and challenging AI work pushing humanity forward

IANAAIExpert, but it seems that many such jobs might have questionable ethical implications?

Re: A dozen Google employees quit over military drone project

#15

Post by spraak »

debt wrote: post #6

I'm staunchly opposed to war, but understand it's unfortunate necessity under certain extreme circumstances. If these types of projects make war machines more precise overall, they may actually decrease overall collateral damage and reduce the total time war is waged which could cause less lives to be lost during war. Until us humans can collectively overcome the various problems that cause war, might be worth it for…

> I'm staunchly opposed to war, but understand it's unfortunate necessity under certain extreme circumstances.

> If these types of projects make war machines more precise overall, they may actually decrease overall collateral damage and reduce the total time war is waged which could cause less lives to be lost during war.

"I'm staunchly opposed to beating my children, but understand it's unfortunate necessity under certain extreme circumstances.

If these types of projects make child beatings more precise overall, they may actually decrease overall harm to children...."

Re: A dozen Google employees quit over military drone project

#16

Post by asdfologist »

spraak wrote: post #15
debt wrote: post #6

I'm staunchly opposed to war, but understand it's unfortunate necessity under certain extreme circumstances. If these types of projects make war machines more precise overall, they may actually decrease overall collateral damage and reduce the total time war is waged which could cause less lives to be lost during war. Until us humans can collectively overcome the various problems that cause war, might be worth it for…

> I'm staunchly opposed to war, but understand it's unfortunate necessity under certain extreme circumstances. > If these types of projects make war machines more precise overall, they may actually decrease overall collateral damage and reduce the total time war is waged which could cause less lives to be lost during war. "I'm staunchly opposed to beating my children, but understand it's unfortunate necessity under c…

So killing ISIS members is morally equivalent to beating children?

Re: A dozen Google employees quit over military drone project

#17

Post by mratzloff »

manfredo wrote: post #12

> "If ethical action on the part of tech companies requires consideration of who might benefit from a technology and who might be harmed," the letter reads, "we can say with certainty that no topic deserves more sober reflection—no technology has higher stakes—than algorithms meant to target and kill at a distance and without public accountability,” My understanding from the reading I've done is that this project is…

Once Google engineers have trained an algorithm to interpret a video feed to determine when people enter and exit buildings, what do you think the very next step is? It will be applied to live video for use in determining where a target is located in order to kill him.

Re: A dozen Google employees quit over military drone project

#18

Post by pmoriarty »

manfredo wrote: post #12

> "If ethical action on the part of tech companies requires consideration of who might benefit from a technology and who might be harmed," the letter reads, "we can say with certainty that no topic deserves more sober reflection—no technology has higher stakes—than algorithms meant to target and kill at a distance and without public accountability,” My understanding from the reading I've done is that this project is…

Just because Google or the military say the tech won't be used to target and kill people doesn't mean it's true.

The letter that I read[1] states:

"Recently, Googlers voiced concerns about Maven internally. Diane Greene responded, assuring them that the technology will not “operate or fly drones” and “will not be used to launch weapons.” While this eliminates a narrow set of direct applications, the technology is being built for the military, and once it’s delivered it could easily be used to assist in these tasks."

and:

"Building this technology to assist the US Government in military surveillance – and potentially lethal outcomes – is not acceptable."

So the concern seems to be that the military can easily repurpose Google's technology to lethal ends.

[1] - https://static01.nyt.com/files/2018/technology/googleletter....

Re: A dozen Google employees quit over military drone project

#19

Post by davesque »

manfredo wrote: post #12

> "If ethical action on the part of tech companies requires consideration of who might benefit from a technology and who might be harmed," the letter reads, "we can say with certainty that no topic deserves more sober reflection—no technology has higher stakes—than algorithms meant to target and kill at a distance and without public accountability,” My understanding from the reading I've done is that this project is…

I don't think that's an argument. The truth is, even if the particular applications of AI to tasks like this are innocuous in this case, they're less than a stone's throw away from things that aren't. Uses like this for technology are a perfect example of things we (we, the tech community, who have always prided ourselves on being more fair and ethical than the rest of the world) all promised we would never do. There is no more of a perfect mis-application of AI tech than to military uses. It doesn't matter if the military is currently only "counting people" in video footage. We all know exactly where it will eventually lead. Counting people will turn into finding people. Finding people will turn into killing people. We can't mince words in our condemnation of this activity.

Re: A dozen Google employees quit over military drone project

#20

Post by h2olover »

manfredo wrote: post #12

> "If ethical action on the part of tech companies requires consideration of who might benefit from a technology and who might be harmed," the letter reads, "we can say with certainty that no topic deserves more sober reflection—no technology has higher stakes—than algorithms meant to target and kill at a distance and without public accountability,” My understanding from the reading I've done is that this project is…

...crunch the data so that they can more effectively kill at a distance and without public accountability
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