Think organic food is better for you, animals, and the planet? Think again • Hacker News Board

Re: Think organic food is better for you, animals, and the planet? Think again

#11

Post by alexandercrohde » Mon, May 14, 2018, 2:26 PM UTC

“Scientific studies do not show that organic products are more nutritious and safer than conventional foods.”

The absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. The truth is we have no clue what the long-term effects are for the chemicals we're exposed to -- for all we know, the 50% drop in male sperm count over the last 30 years is related to pesticides. [1]

Additionally, there's something a little forceful about the tone of this piece that I find very suspect. If organic pesticides like copper sulfate are dangerous, doesn't this just mean we need even higher standards for organic?

> If all of the United States were to go organic, the cost would likely be around $200 billion annually from lower productivity.

This is a strange argument. Eating organic hurts the economy? The whole point of the economy is to make our lives high-quality.

[1] https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sperm-count-dropp...

Re: Think organic food is better for you, animals, and the planet? Think again

#12

Post by technotony » Mon, May 14, 2018, 2:28 PM UTC

rossdavidh wrote: post #4

I have to admit, whenever I see something like this, my immediate response is: who paid for them to write this. I am reminded of the many talking heads in finance prior to 2008 who assured us that our financial system providing more debt than ever to support home loans was good for the economy. I'm not saying it's impossible for organic to have downsides. It's not even impossible that those downsides might be substan…

A challenge is that with this debate (say organic vs GMO) both sides have a lot at stake financially and you can make this argument either way. How then should one decide what to trust and read?

Re: Think organic food is better for you, animals, and the planet? Think again

#13

Post by srj » Mon, May 14, 2018, 2:28 PM UTC

Organic food has fewer pesticides, as this article reluctantly admits. There's not enough oversight from the government as to the health of these, so for some set of vegetables/fruit where the additives cannot just be rinsed off it makes sense to buy organic.

Re: Think organic food is better for you, animals, and the planet? Think again

#14

Post by alexandercrohde » Mon, May 14, 2018, 2:30 PM UTC

technotony wrote: post #12

rossdavidh wrote: post #4

I have to admit, whenever I see something like this, my immediate response is: who paid for them to write this. I am reminded of the many talking heads in finance prior to 2008 who assured us that our financial system providing more debt than ever to support home loans was good for the economy. I'm not saying it's impossible for organic to have downsides. It's not even impossible that those downsides might be substan…

A challenge is that with this debate (say organic vs GMO) both sides have a lot at stake financially and you can make this argument either way. How then should one decide what to trust and read?

Well in such cases, I apply the precautionary principle and do the thing that is the least risk. In this case, it's minimizing unknown chemicals in my body.

Re: Think organic food is better for you, animals, and the planet? Think again

#15

Post by bogle » Mon, May 14, 2018, 2:30 PM UTC

rossdavidh wrote: post #4

I have to admit, whenever I see something like this, my immediate response is: who paid for them to write this. I am reminded of the many talking heads in finance prior to 2008 who assured us that our financial system providing more debt than ever to support home loans was good for the economy. I'm not saying it's impossible for organic to have downsides. It's not even impossible that those downsides might be substan…

Although that may be true of many articles it is possible to check the author's credentials: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bj%C3%B8rn_Lomborg

His public record seems to me to suggest he really does hold these views.

Re: Think organic food is better for you, animals, and the planet? Think again

#16

Post by JoeAltmaier » Mon, May 14, 2018, 2:31 PM UTC

alexandercrohde wrote: post #11

“Scientific studies do not show that organic products are more nutritious and safer than conventional foods.” The absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. The truth is we have no clue what the long-term effects are for the chemicals we're exposed to -- for all we know, the 50% drop in male sperm count over the last 30 years is related to pesticides. [1] Additionally, there's something a little forceful about th…

The argument is, doing pointless things and burning through $200B could be better spend doing actual things that help us.

Science-denying is not helping us out, nationally or worldwide. Lets stop.

Re: Think organic food is better for you, animals, and the planet? Think again

#17

Post by gamache » Mon, May 14, 2018, 2:31 PM UTC

rossdavidh wrote: post #4

I have to admit, whenever I see something like this, my immediate response is: who paid for them to write this. I am reminded of the many talking heads in finance prior to 2008 who assured us that our financial system providing more debt than ever to support home loans was good for the economy. I'm not saying it's impossible for organic to have downsides. It's not even impossible that those downsides might be substan…

Ad hominem: the article author, Bjorn Lomborg, is a noted climate change skeptic[1] whose work has been declared "scientifically dishonest" by watchdogs in the past[2].

The money seems to come from his being an environmental edgelord. Private funding -> almost nonexistent foundation -> Lomborg's pocket[3].

[1] http://www.businessinsider.com/the-ten-most-important-climat... [2] http://fivu.dk/en/publications/2004/annual-report-2003-the-d... [3] https://theconversation.com/still-no-consensus-for-bjorn-lom...

Re: Think organic food is better for you, animals, and the planet? Think again

#18

Post by rossdavidh » Mon, May 14, 2018, 2:31 PM UTC

technotony wrote: post #12

rossdavidh wrote: post #4

I have to admit, whenever I see something like this, my immediate response is: who paid for them to write this. I am reminded of the many talking heads in finance prior to 2008 who assured us that our financial system providing more debt than ever to support home loans was good for the economy. I'm not saying it's impossible for organic to have downsides. It's not even impossible that those downsides might be substan…

A challenge is that with this debate (say organic vs GMO) both sides have a lot at stake financially and you can make this argument either way. How then should one decide what to trust and read?

I tend to go by: 1) which side has more money to spend? 2) which side is introducing more foods/chemicals/conditions which are more different from what my ancestors evolved for?

Which is totally not a guarantee, I freely admit.

Re: Think organic food is better for you, animals, and the planet? Think again

#19

Post by bryanlarsen » Mon, May 14, 2018, 2:32 PM UTC

Xeoncross wrote: post #10

> "But surely organics avoid pesticides? No. Organic farming can use any pesticide that is “natural”. This is misleading. Organics do avoid pesticides - just not all of them. This is a step in the right direction. > "Conventional food, it’s true, has higher pesticide contamination. Although it is still very low, this is a definite benefit of organics. So basically, because "Organic" is still new and hasn't weeded out…

"Organics do avoid pesticides - just not all of them. This is a step in the right direction."

A small sample of a large set has the same mean as the large set.

IOW, limiting selection does not make things safer.

Re: Think organic food is better for you, animals, and the planet? Think again

#20

Post by Xeoncross » Mon, May 14, 2018, 2:33 PM UTC

abtinf wrote: post #8

rossdavidh wrote: post #4

I have to admit, whenever I see something like this, my immediate response is: who paid for them to write this. I am reminded of the many talking heads in finance prior to 2008 who assured us that our financial system providing more debt than ever to support home loans was good for the economy. I'm not saying it's impossible for organic to have downsides. It's not even impossible that those downsides might be substan…

Do you apply the same standard to claims about "organic" products?

What are you talking about? Organic foods are an absence of herbicides, pesticides, and narcotics. It's not like you're choosing the lesser of two evils or something.