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Ryan Holiday on Conspiracy, Gawker, and the Hulk Hogan Trial

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Re: Ryan Holiday on Conspiracy, Gawker, and the Hulk Hogan Trial

#11

Post by kbuchanan »

prepend wrote: post #2

I like how they talk about “Mr. A” using his interview with Thiel to pitch the conspiracy rather than a startup. An aspect not covered in the book. This podcast made me read the book. The book is interesting, but this podcast is somehow better because of the way Roberts questions Holiday down a few logical paths.

I also read the book. It's a bit overwrought with classical quotes and psychological exploration. Don't get me wrong, I love the classics, but I often wanted the book to get on with the details of the story.

Re: Ryan Holiday on Conspiracy, Gawker, and the Hulk Hogan Trial

#12

Post by sjansen »

s73v3r_ wrote: post #4

That truly was a case in which there was no good side to it. There was nobody worth rooting for, and no matter who won, it would have been bad. Publishing a private citizen's sex tape is not news, and for that matter, neither is outing someone who is not wanting to be outed. Using your vast wealth to bankroll someone else's lawsuit is also quite shady.

Agreed. Every time someone expresses outrage at the lawsuit, I want to ask them why Gawker gets a free pass for their behavior. The truth is, they sealed their own fate by stepping outside the bounds of both law and civility.

Re: Ryan Holiday on Conspiracy, Gawker, and the Hulk Hogan Trial

#13

Post by trendia »

nrook wrote: post #8

Gawker always said it was in the business of publishing true stories. Here is one last true story: You live in a country where a billionaire can put a publication out of business. A billionaire can pick off an individual writer and leave that person penniless and without legal protection. If you want to write stories that might anger a billionaire, you need to work for another billionaire yourself, or for a billion-d…

One could also say that if someone puts a video of you having sex without consent, then companies like Gawker will ignore you unless you're a billionaire.

They published a video of a young lady having sex in a bar bathroom, and despite both the lady and her father pleading with Nick Denton to remove the video, he only said "These things pass". The family could not sure, and the outcome was unsure, and Gawker has insurance against these things, so Gawker felt they could get away with it as long as they got the pageviews.

Should you need to be a billionaire to have a non-newsworthy video of you removed?

Re: Ryan Holiday on Conspiracy, Gawker, and the Hulk Hogan Trial

#14

Post by dfxm12 »

nrook wrote: post #8

Gawker always said it was in the business of publishing true stories. Here is one last true story: You live in a country where a billionaire can put a publication out of business. A billionaire can pick off an individual writer and leave that person penniless and without legal protection. If you want to write stories that might anger a billionaire, you need to work for another billionaire yourself, or for a billion-d…

There's so much at play here, that boiling this situation to a generalization like this is outright deception.

* Gawker ignored a court order to take down a post

* Gawker's legal defense had a poor strategy of attacking Hogan's character

* Gawker either didn't coach their witnesses, or they just ignored any coaching:

* You have the author of the post saying he didn't consider any of the reasons Gawker's legal team said made the sex tape newsworthy

* In a trial by jury, the author also said he'd only hold back a sex tape if the subject was under four years old

Yeah, the lawsuit was bankrolled by a billionaire, but it would have been a slam dunk for any lawyer. The fact that they sought $100 Million but were awarded $140 Million by a jury should be telling about how poorly Gawker handled this situation.

Re: Ryan Holiday on Conspiracy, Gawker, and the Hulk Hogan Trial

#15

Post by dingbat »

knuththetruth wrote: post #10
bad_ramen_soup wrote: post #6

I'm curious how stoicism is tied to this as Holiday has been using his Daily Stoic platform to promote this book as well..

It’s not really. Holiday has always been a “finger to the wind” public intellectual. Stoicism isn’t really a marketable ideology in a time of social and political upheaval, so he’s staking out a more “activist” position to sell himself. This time, I guess it’s that conspiracies to destroy your opponents might actually be a good thing because they represent action over inaction (he more or less says as much about two…

Holiday as a "public intellectual"? he's always struck me as a marketer, retweeter of self-help quotes, and curator of other people's ideas, at best. something about him tells me there's nothing there.

Re: Ryan Holiday on Conspiracy, Gawker, and the Hulk Hogan Trial

#16

Post by _lbaq »

bad_ramen_soup wrote: post #6

I'm curious how stoicism is tied to this as Holiday has been using his Daily Stoic platform to promote this book as well..

He is a marketer first and foremost, his Daily stoic book / platform shows that, but there is nothing wrong with that.

If you (as a stoic) want more substance I can recommend Massimo Pigliucci's "How to be a stoic" site (and book) instead.

https://howtobeastoic.wordpress.com/

Re: Ryan Holiday on Conspiracy, Gawker, and the Hulk Hogan Trial

#17

Post by knuththetruth »

dingbat wrote: post #15
knuththetruth wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not really. Holiday has always been a “finger to the wind” public intellectual. Stoicism isn’t really a marketable ideology in a time of social and political upheaval, so he’s staking out a more “activist” position to sell himself. This time, I guess it’s that conspiracies to destroy your opponents might actually be a good thing because they represent action over inaction (he more or less says as much about two…

Holiday as a "public intellectual"? he's always struck me as a marketer, retweeter of self-help quotes, and curator of other people's ideas, at best. something about him tells me there's nothing there.

>he's always struck me as a marketer, retweeter of self-help quotes, and curator of other people's ideas, at best. something about him tells me there's nothing there.

Yeah, sorry. In America, to me, public intellectuals are synonymous with all of that. I guess that’s less true elsewhere in the world. But it’s probably too generous to even given him that label and plays into how he’s trying to market himself.

Re: Ryan Holiday on Conspiracy, Gawker, and the Hulk Hogan Trial

#18

Post by oculusthrift »

sjansen wrote: post #12
s73v3r_ wrote: post #4

That truly was a case in which there was no good side to it. There was nobody worth rooting for, and no matter who won, it would have been bad. Publishing a private citizen's sex tape is not news, and for that matter, neither is outing someone who is not wanting to be outed. Using your vast wealth to bankroll someone else's lawsuit is also quite shady.

Agreed. Every time someone expresses outrage at the lawsuit, I want to ask them why Gawker gets a free pass for their behavior. The truth is, they sealed their own fate by stepping outside the bounds of both law and civility.

Well the entire media coverage of the event was on Gawkers side because the media wants to be able to print anything. Therefore if you hadn’t investigated further i could see why you would take Gawkers side.

Re: Ryan Holiday on Conspiracy, Gawker, and the Hulk Hogan Trial

#19

Post by s73v3r_ »

nrook wrote: post #8

Gawker always said it was in the business of publishing true stories. Here is one last true story: You live in a country where a billionaire can put a publication out of business. A billionaire can pick off an individual writer and leave that person penniless and without legal protection. If you want to write stories that might anger a billionaire, you need to work for another billionaire yourself, or for a billion-d…

"You live in a country where a billionaire can put a publication out of business."

I highly doubt Thiel would have been able to do that had it not been for Gawker's general being shitty. Outing Thiel was shitty, publishing the sex tape of a private individual was shitty, and saying that they would publish kiddie porn if they felt it was "newsworthy" was shitty.

Gawker was able to be taken out due to their own actions.

Re: Ryan Holiday on Conspiracy, Gawker, and the Hulk Hogan Trial

#20

Post by ordak »

strong_silent_t wrote: post #7

Ok, I doubt I'll ever take an hour to listen to this, but I really enjoyed the book. It was very interesting to see the little particularities of the legal system and the participants that had a big impact. I basically read it straight through in one shot as the host said he did as well. I found the writing to be florid at times (there was a seamless segue between an anecdote of Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon and…

Bruh, Russ Roberts makes the hour worth it even if the subject itself doesn't.

Check out any of the econtalk episodes with Nassim Taleb or the ones with Cesar Hidalgo or Pedro Domingos.

EDIT: Hidalgo episode: http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2015/10/cesar_hidalgo_o.htm...

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