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Gotta love how clattner shuts down the thread. He's a nice guy but he does have a strong authoritarian side that gets triggered by the typical SJW causes (even in small talk about silly things).
How does it harm you if someone tries to increase diversity?
LLVM is a big project; there’s surely enough space for different people.
Some people will focus on the technical bits; others will focus on legal issues, and others can focus on social issues.
What’s the problem with that? Why do so many people become defensive when a project adopts a code of conduct?
If you really only care about building a great project with smart people, why do you care about the code of conduct? Just carry on with your work!
If the code of conduct actually gets in the way of working, please speak up, but that doesn’t seem to be the case here.
Here’s something I don’t understand. If all you want is to contribute code, why not do that? How does it harm you if someone tries to increase diversity? LLVM is a big project; there’s surely enough space for different people. Some people will focus on the technical bits; others will focus on legal issues, and others can focus on social issues. What’s the problem with that? Why do so many people become defensive when…
Here’s something I don’t understand. If all you want is to contribute code, why not do that? How does it harm you if someone tries to increase diversity? LLVM is a big project; there’s surely enough space for different people. Some people will focus on the technical bits; others will focus on legal issues, and others can focus on social issues. What’s the problem with that? Why do so many people become defensive when…
As far as objecting to CoCs, a lot of people don't like them because they've historically opened the door to non-developers coming in an usurping actual contributing developers and shifting the project focus from something technical to something political.
> Since agreement [to the code of conduct] is required to take part in the conferences, I am no longer able to attend.
For reference, this is LLVM's code of conduct: https://llvm.org/docs/CodeOfConduct.html
If somebody finds any of the below to be objectionable and refuses to abide by it, I would not be comfortable attending a conference with that person or being forced to interact them for e.g. code review purposes. His departure is regrettable, but it is for the best that he's chosen to remove himself from the project if he can't bring himself to abide by it.
> Be friendly and patient.
> Be welcoming. We strive to be a community that welcomes and supports people of all backgrounds and identities. This includes, but is not limited to members of any race, ethnicity, culture, national origin, colour, immigration status, social and economic class, educational level, sex, sexual orientation, gender identity and expression, age, size, family status, political belief, religion or lack thereof, and mental and physical ability.
> Be considerate. Your work will be used by other people, and you in turn will depend on the work of others. Any decision you take will affect users and colleagues, and you should take those consequences into account. Remember that we’re a world-wide community, so you might not be communicating in someone else’s primary language.
> Be respectful. Not all of us will agree all the time, but disagreement is no excuse for poor behavior and poor manners. We might all experience some frustration now and then, but we cannot allow that frustration to turn into a personal attack. It’s important to remember that a community where people feel uncomfortable or threatened is not a productive one. Members of the LLVM community should be respectful when dealing with other members as well as with people outside the LLVM community.
> Be careful in the words that you choose and be kind to others. Do not insult or put down other participants. Harassment and other exclusionary behavior aren’t acceptable. This includes, but is not limited to:
> Violent threats or language directed against another person.
> Discriminatory jokes and language.
> Posting sexually explicit or violent material.
> Posting (or threatening to post) other people’s personally identifying information (“doxing”).
> Personal insults, especially those using racist or sexist terms.
> Unwelcome sexual attention.
> Advocating for, or encouraging, any of the above behavior.
> In general, if someone asks you to stop, then stop. Persisting in such behavior after being asked to stop is considered harassment.
> When we disagree, try to understand why. Disagreements, both social and technical, happen all the time and LLVM is no exception. It is important that we resolve disagreements and differing views constructively. Remember that we’re different. The strength of LLVM comes from its varied community, people from a wide range of backgrounds. Different people have different perspectives on issues. Being unable to understand why someone holds a viewpoint doesn’t mean that they’re wrong. Don’t forget that it is human to err and blaming each other doesn’t get us anywhere. Instead, focus on helping to resolve issues and learning from mistakes.
These social justice warriors may seem well-meaning, but ultimately they are parasites. Their mission is never-ending and ultimately they overreach and this is the result. I just want to work with smart people. I don't care what gender they associate themselves with, what color they are, whether there's an equal distribution of any of these characteristics in my department. I just want to do my job and learn from sma…
Like it or not, the entire system is stacked against minorities in ways that aren't even obvious or noticeable from a position of privilege. I work as an engineer in an office of 120 people in the East Bay. There are three black people working in the office. One of them is the receptionist. If we assume that there are no racial differences in technical ability, then the demographics of my office should roughly mirror the demographics of the surrounding community. Oakland is 28% black (according to the 2010 census), meaning in a fair, unbiased system we should have roughly 30-35 black people working in the office. I am sure that no hiring manager has set out to exclude black people from their postings, but there are centuries of history and deeply ingrained biases that have led to a severe under-representation of African-Americans in this industry, same with every other minority.
Until we are truly operating on a level playing field, I am 100% in favour of scholarships based on giving under-represented minorities more opportunities. It is not discrimination to exclude white men from these scholarships. It is recognizing the centuries of privilege we have had and saying that we want give other people the opportunities we have be given simply by existing.
Ridiculous. This is the kind of weak thinker who would have looked at Jim Crow's South and said it was egalitarian. Formal discrimination is not the same as concrete discrimination.
You call it ridiculous, I see it as the beginning of a movement to make open source project contributions invite only. The drive for “inclusion” is turning cancerous. “Social justice bikeshedding”. I’m pro social tolerance, but it’s coming off the rails in the tech world, with active discrimination explained away as progress.
Different people have different interpretations of support. Does it mean you support people even when you disagree with them or do you support their beliefs?
I've been doing tech conferences for a long time. I initially learned how to do tech conferences without things outside the tech being part of the conference. This kept the focus on the tech and including people into that
These social justice warriors may seem well-meaning, but ultimately they are parasites. Their mission is never-ending and ultimately they overreach and this is the result. I just want to work with smart people. I don't care what gender they associate themselves with, what color they are, whether there's an equal distribution of any of these characteristics in my department. I just want to do my job and learn from sma…
I, too, dream of a world where I can work with smart people without regard to their race, sexuality, gender, whatever, but it is naive to think that we are already living in that world. Like it or not, the entire system is stacked against minorities in ways that aren't even obvious or noticeable from a position of privilege. I work as an engineer in an office of 120 people in the East Bay. There are three black peopl…
Earlier quoted context omitted.
You call it ridiculous, I see it as the beginning of a movement to make open source project contributions invite only. The drive for “inclusion” is turning cancerous. “Social justice bikeshedding”. I’m pro social tolerance, but it’s coming off the rails in the tech world, with active discrimination explained away as progress.
> welcomes and supports people of all backgrounds and identities. Different people have different interpretations of support. Does it mean you support people even when you disagree with them or do you support their beliefs? I've been doing tech conferences for a long time. I initially learned how to do tech conferences without things outside the tech being part of the conference. This kept the focus on the tech and i…