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Bulldoze the business school

theguardian.com

11–20 of 162 posts

Re: Bulldoze the business school

#11
John Ralston-Saul, writing in The Doubter's Companion in 1994:

> BUSINESS SCHOOLS: Acting schools which train experts in abstract management methods to pretend they are capitalists.

> The graduates of these institutions have dominated Western business leadership for the last quarter-century. This corresponds exactly with a severe economic crisis in the West, which has included runaway inflation, endemic unemployment, almost no real growth, record levels of bankruptcy, and a collapse in industrial production. Manufacturing, the sector which they have been trained to manage, has suffered more than any other.

> This raises two questions:

> 1. Is there any indication—practical, statistical, philosophical or financial—that training future business leaders in specialized management schools has benefited business or the economy?

> 2. Has this new élite — approximately a quarter of the university population — been able to communicate to society any convincing program for ending the crisis?

> Not surprisingly, an education which above all teaches the management of structures is impervious to failure. Those within the structure continue to define the economy’s needs in their own terms and so seek out successive new generations of business school graduates.

> In 1993 the Harvard Business School reacted to growing criticism of its methods by announcing a new curriculum. In the future students would “focus less on specific disciplines and more on combining skills to solve problems.” But it is precisely their obsession with problem-solving that is the heart of the problem. To organize the training of business leaders from the point of view of the corporate executive is rather like training athletes to compete from the point of view of the team’s office manager.

> The outside observer might conclude dispassionately that these schools should be shut down or their methodology revolutionized. The graduate will argue, like the World War I staff officer, that failure could be turned into success if only there were more of his own kind in positions of power. Just one more wave of bodies heaved out of the trenches for a charge and the war will be won.

Re: Bulldoze the business school

#12
The problem is that business ethics and corporate social responsibility are subjects used as window dressing in the marketing of the business school, and as a fig leaf to cover the conscience of B-school deans – as if talking about ethics and responsibility were the same as doing something about it.

At the business school I attended, there was a soaring mission statement that mentioned "high ethical standards" and "improving the world." And there were some people (faculty, students, program managers) who really did try to live up to the statement in terms of the focus of their studies, the special programs they launched, and the cross-campus collaborations that they took part in.

But it was also abundantly clear that some parts of the school could care less about the mission. They were there to make money, period. Roll out the red carpet for Wall Street recruiters, management consultancies, and private equity firms. Sign multimillion dollar academic "collaborations" with cash-rich countries run by dictators and monarchies. Treat ethics as an afterthought.

I remember in our microeconomics class (taught by a tenured professor who had been at the school for decades) the very first week we had to read a case about a team at Harrah's who designed a loyalty program for frequent gamblers. I remember the professor or someone in a video interview we watched crowing, "it was like printing money." The "big question" at the conclusion of the case reads:

When asked about the company’s long-term vision for its RM system, a member of Harrah’s RM team became thoughtful for a moment. He responded that, while all of the near and longer-term developments described above were critical, he thought there was one important aspect of all RM systems that needed further development. "What I’d really like to know — and I pose this as a question for researchers in revenue management — is how to integrate information about price elasticity into these systems. Clearly, changes in price affect the level of demand we experience. However, none of the systems we are familiar with capture this effect." (https://pubsonline.informs.org/doi/pdf/10.1287/ited.1090.003...)

Neither the case nor the instructor had anything to say about the fact that this was basically a technology-driven scheme to extract as much money as possible from members of the public, including gambling addicts and other vulnerable populations. I regret not raising my hand at that point, and asking, "WTF?"

Later in the program, we did get exposed to professors with moral and ethical compasses, and wanted to impress upon us the real risks to human life and well-being. They included instructors teaching macroeconomics, finance, innovation, and management law. In other academic units, people most definitely were attuned to doing the right thing (one faculty member famously has her incoming students watch "Black Mirror").

I went in knowing almost nothing about business or the way to navigate certain situations, and came out the other end a lot more comfortable about creating a successful business based on high ethical standards. But some other experiences -- not to mention the obvious conflicts between the school's mission and the way it pandered to some of the most ethically challenged elements of global capitalism -- left a bad taste in my mouth.

Re: Bulldoze the business school

#13
So, an article in "The Guardian" laments the immorality of teaching capitalism to future would-be capitalists. Color me shocked!

What should we teach them instead? The importance of social responsibility, sustainability, diversity and warm feelings and how capitalism is really evil and how they should feel bad about employing its principles? In other words, shall we turn them into sheep to be let loose among the wolves (and charge them for it)?

There's an argument to be made against many practices taught to MBAs, but those arguments better be supported by some science (like behavioral economics). It all has to make sense and support the bottom line.

Let's take the example of the manager who fires a hundred workers and who pays himself a 500,000$ bonus (half of which will fall to taxes). He's in it for the money, just like those workers. Should he give up on his bonus and save ten employees for one year? Will that increase productivity or is he better off increasing his own wealth? We're talking about a man who rose to the top, someone whose education (or indoctrination) will not have destroyed his sense of self-interest.

Re: Bulldoze the business school

#14

He's got a point, and I studied at a top business school. The points he makes are mostly valid. Not sure if he mentioned this one, though: The existence of business schools gives society the unjustified idea that there are positions for which business graduates are better suited than most other people. To compare, medical schools do the same but it is justified. I wouldn't have surgery performed on me by someone who…

>>> Finance can get very interesting when it comes to derivatives and investment strategies, but you're never going to learn this without having a strong applied math background.

A colleague of mine is breezing through an MBA program right now. He's a very bright engineer. Another friend, a nuclear engineer, got an MBA several years ago.

They both told me that the finance classes were hard for their classmates because they don't understand calculus, so the features of the models they are studying are a complete surprise to them, and can only be internalized by memorization.

My friend described the statistics class as being a series of lessons in p-hacking.

Re: Bulldoze the business school

#15

So, an article in "The Guardian" laments the immorality of teaching capitalism to future would-be capitalists. Color me shocked! What should we teach them instead? The importance of social responsibility, sustainability, diversity and warm feelings and how capitalism is really evil and how they should feel bad about employing its principles? In other words, shall we turn them into sheep to be let loose among the wolv…

> So, an article in "The Guardian" laments the immorality of teaching capitalism to future would-be capitalists.

Hmm. From TFA, the author laments that:

Within the business school, capitalism is assumed to be the end of history, an economic model that has trumped all the others, and is now taught as science, rather than ideology.

And then:

The business school assumes capitalism, corporations and managers as the default form of organisation, and everything else as history, anomaly, exception, alternative.

Reasonable, and substantiated, concerns around economics as a subject (rather than pretending to be an actual science).

> Let's take the example of the manager who fires a hundred workers and who pays himself a 500,000$ bonus ... We're talking about a man who rose to the top, someone whose education (or indoctrination) will not have destroyed his sense of self-interest.

Your commitment to the masculine is probably merely a habit, but you've inadvertently highlighted one of the problems exacerbated by the teachings of the average business school -- self-interest at any cost is acceptable, because it's an inherent property of capitalism.

Self-interest is fine and dandy, but the example you're citing -- dispense with a hundred people in order to obtain a half a million dollars -- is not an overly productive practice for most societies.

Re: Bulldoze the business school

#16
post #6

Drucker, the person most attributed with founding modern management, himself stated that you cannot teach management: Prof Drucker expounds: "Teaching 23-year-olds in an MBA programme strikes me as largely a waste of time. They lack the background of experience. You can teach them skills - accounting and what have you - but you can't teach them management." His view is that management is neither an art nor a science…

This is the conventional wisdom in the "real world" as well. There is expected to be a big difference between getting an MBA straight out of undergrad, and getting one after a few years of business experience. On the other hand, this could just be an age bias, e.g., someone with more experience also happens to be older, but their "experience" might not have formed them into a competent manager or leader. In fact, it's actually a toss-up.

Mind you, somebody has to do the accounting. We still need clerks, though they have different titles now. I tend to see middle management as being largely an information processing task: Collecting, organizing, analyzing, and communicating information. The MBA's learn how to communicate in a more or less standardized way, like having a standard API for a computer program. I've been a middle manager, but do not have an MBA.

Where managers, including MBA's, tend to be weak, are in the areas of leadership and decision-making. You can put someone through business school, but it's a toss-up whether you can turn them into a leader.

Re: Bulldoze the business school

#17
I, under great pressure from my parents decided to go for one. Through my youth I dreamed of doing some hardcore engineering work, yet me taking a look on the job market made me reconsider (that was right in the middle of credit bubble,) engineering job at that time looked like a great lottery where you pay 80k for 6 years of uncertainty, and 2 in 3 chance to not to get a substantial job in a year. Yet, your studies take much dedication, and leave you no chance to earn properly while you study.

Given all above, we settled on a compromise solution, I were to go for a 2 year intensive BCIT undergrad business course with as much edge in tech as possible, and to which I will get as much study credit transfer possible from Russian PTU and courses I did as an exchange student in Nanyang, Singapore.

In total, it took $60k of living expenses and study fees for 2 years. I was able to work while I study more or less freely, though with arguable legality with my student visa. I found my first job through the company I was interning with. I never went into debt besides $20k I took from my parents at the very end of my studies, when fees were finally closing on to eat through my savings (they never did, but I had just $1.9k by the time I graduated).

In the end, by tech background took me back into tech, and my second job after graduation had close to no business side, aside from what I learned on marketing courses (I was a webmaster for an electronics startup with a lot of liberty in what I put into marketing drivel.)

My thoughts:

1. Some base skills like financial modelling/planning, bookkeeping, doing accounting reports, business law do have genuine value. I regularly see tech managers nearing C-Suite positions who have great trouble when it comes to comprehension of such basics.

2. The further you go, the more ephemeral and metaphysical do your studies get, the thicker the coolaid, the harder they try to persuade you into believing into value of such studies. By the time you get to writing "executive case studies," if you have not realized that, then, with all respect to you you are a lost cause.

3. People who endure and get through, by the time they graduate, have their view of reality warped. No red pill will help them. Even if some do come close to realisation of errors in their ways, and can ask for feedback, it takes extreme effort to persuade them to adopt proper ways. You need to show them that they don't only concede their position on a particular issue, but make them accept that their original reasoning that leads them to their erroneous position is not working.

4. In China, I saw great great many youngster coming back from America after B-School, putting the knowledge they were taught to a level nearing an ultimate religious revelation. My short relationship with TCL's (a Chinese electronics company) product group was like that:

Me - man, this is not a lifestyle brand no matter how you twist it, and it will not be one no matter what the marketing dept. think they can do. You are not becoming a lifestyle brand through any actions of a marketing dept.

Product manager Joe - but this is not how it is supposed to be, a guru of management studies B said this, so we will be doing so. This is the trust our company's supreme leadership puts into progressive Western ways! ...

After the end of the gig, I decided to not to accept their new offers. For the next few months after that, their above standing managers were contacting me. All of them sounded rather surprised with my reasoning for me not willing to work with them. I think, all of them asked me something like "were we really doing something wrong there?"

Re: Bulldoze the business school

#19
post #4

I'm a Stanford business school grad and harbour no fanatical love for it. I penned a public letter to my Dean [1] five years ago suggesting changes to a curriculum I saw as myopic. But this article strikes me as a diatribe against capitalism rather than business school alone. And the author's track record of railing against an industry he taught in for years sounds a bit like a publicity effort. Fwiw, my experience a…

> my classmate are incredible and many remain close friends

That's a more significant aspect of business school than the classes themselves. In fact, I suspect the curriculum are designed more to maximize the creation of friendships (i.e. fairly easy and communal) than it is to actually fill people with knowledge.

Re: Bulldoze the business school

#20
post #7
post #6

Drucker, the person most attributed with founding modern management, himself stated that you cannot teach management: Prof Drucker expounds: "Teaching 23-year-olds in an MBA programme strikes me as largely a waste of time. They lack the background of experience. You can teach them skills - accounting and what have you - but you can't teach them management." His view is that management is neither an art nor a science…

The original idea of bschools where they where for mid career mangers where considered high flyers. Now it seems the higher level degree status is used to game visa applications. Maybe a MBA should only be issued if you can prove 10 or 15 years real world work experience which would return the MBA to its roots as a course for experienced people

No respectable business school should admit people without substantial existing work experience into any graduate course.

Unfortunately, it looks that more than a half of big name universities are happy to admit people without such, or even no undergraduate studies background.

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