The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming • Hacker News Board

Re: The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming

#11

Post by ams6110 » Fri, Apr 20, 2018, 3:01 PM UTC

jgh wrote: post #6

Why is obfuscating the intentions of a document in dense language most people can't properly understand a thing that's allowed to be upheld? They might as well write the damn things in Esperanto for all they're worth to most of the folks who click agree.

I can only think it must be analagous to why programs have a lot of features people don't understand or use. Git might be a case in point. Smart programmers think of every possible edge case and "what if" and try to cover all those things. The result is a confusing mess for people who just want to get the "happy path" work done.

Lawyers try to think of every interpretation and circumstance and try to be sure the agreement addresses those unambiguously. Ironically, the dense language that results is anything but unambiguous to the untrained reader.

Re: The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming

#12

Post by dyladan » Fri, Apr 20, 2018, 3:01 PM UTC

>”I don’t think the average person likely reads that whole document.”

This is my favorite quote in the whole article. Sums up the pompousness of the company quite nicely I think. This is one of the largest companies in the world. The quote could easily have been “we go to great lengths to make sure that’s the case,” or “that’s the point, grandpa.” At least it wouldn’t have come across as dishonest and cowardly that way.

Re: The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming

#13

Post by liberte82 » Fri, Apr 20, 2018, 3:02 PM UTC

_xnmw wrote: post #7

Just like an underage person or drunk is unable to give consent, it should be illegal to coerce an average Joe untrained in the law to agree to a 50-page document filled with legalese, unless you pay for them to be advised by a lawyer.

When exactly did it enter the public consciousness that drunk people are unable to give consent? I feel if this is true, there are many drunken hookups that become questionable. I'm in my mid-30s, and I feel this concept wasn't really a thing in my clubbing days.

Re: The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming

#14

Post by ams6110 » Fri, Apr 20, 2018, 3:05 PM UTC

alex_young wrote: post #3

How can PayPal rationalize closing accounts because users opened them years ago when they were too young? Is that really an issue for a 28 year old? Contract or no, PayPal looks really bad here. One would think they would be looking for good will rather than this kind of press in such a competitive market.

Because they have an ass-covering-oriented legal team who will say "the user was unable to legally agree to the terms" thefore we (PayPal) will be vulnerable if they were to do something fraudulent.

Re: The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming

#15

Post by dvdhnt » Fri, Apr 20, 2018, 3:07 PM UTC

ams6110 wrote: post #8

> If a typical user wouldn’t understand the documents, the consent that companies rely on for their business activities would be legally invalid. I like that standard, seems to comport to the "meeting of the minds" requirement for a valid legal agreement/contract.

I totally agree. The terms and conditions, or some offering of them, should be available in the same way that quick start or full guides are - in a form that adds to the usability of the service. E.g. "when you upload a photo, ____ owns the photo, for _____ period, and may do a, b, c, and d with it"

Re: The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming

#16

Post by TangoTrotFox » Fri, Apr 20, 2018, 3:11 PM UTC

There is one thing I'm curious about. Imagine Facebook's terms stated: "We will scrape any and all information we possibly can from you. We will use it in any and all ways we see fit. You agree to never sue us for anything whatsoever. We also have the right to do whatever we want to your account for any reason we want. We can also add or remove anything from these terms at any time and for any reason we like without telling you, and with immediate effect." That is probably a fairly reasonable cliff notes of their actual terms. Would this actually deter anybody from using their software?

In other words, are companies piling on the legalese to protect themselves or to deceive users? Maybe I'm overly cynical but I think even those terms would not really stop any meaningful number of people from signing up.

Re: The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming

#17

Post by komali2 » Fri, Apr 20, 2018, 3:13 PM UTC

>Martin Garner, an analyst at technology consultancy CCS Insight, suggests companies walk readers through their policies step by step. That way they could opt out of selected provisions—limiting, for instance, third parties that can gain access to the data or restricting the kinds of information companies may stockpile.

Merging t&c with settings... I like this idea a lot. Privacy controls with the agreement right there. You and the website clear on exactly what the relationship is.

Gonna bring this up during checkin today.

Re: The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming

#18

Post by ams6110 » Fri, Apr 20, 2018, 3:15 PM UTC

liberte82 wrote: post #13

_xnmw wrote: post #7

Just like an underage person or drunk is unable to give consent, it should be illegal to coerce an average Joe untrained in the law to agree to a 50-page document filled with legalese, unless you pay for them to be advised by a lawyer.

When exactly did it enter the public consciousness that drunk people are unable to give consent? I feel if this is true, there are many drunken hookups that become questionable. I'm in my mid-30s, and I feel this concept wasn't really a thing in my clubbing days.

Obama's 2011 Title IX "Dear Colleague" letter was a big part of it, establishing the lowest standard of proof in claims of sexual assault on college campuses. Schools responded by saying, effectively, that if you have sex with someone who's had a drink, and that person later regrets it, regardless of what they might have told you at the time, you have no defense.

It's all ridiculous because universities have no competence in investigating or adjudicating such claims, but that's another topic.

So anyone who was in college in the past 10 years will have had drummed into their heads that there is no consent possible by an intoxicated person.

Re: The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming

#19

Post by jve » Fri, Apr 20, 2018, 3:18 PM UTC

dyladan wrote: post #12

>”I don’t think the average person likely reads that whole document.” This is my favorite quote in the whole article. Sums up the pompousness of the company quite nicely I think. This is one of the largest companies in the world. The quote could easily have been “we go to great lengths to make sure that’s the case,” or “that’s the point, grandpa.” At least it wouldn’t have come across as dishonest and cowardly that w…

That is actually quite honest. Do you read temrs for all services? Or do you read terms at least for most important services?

If you do, great. Many don't and just complain or are surprised when they learn what almost every service on the web does with his data.

Re: The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming

#20

Post by jve » Fri, Apr 20, 2018, 3:20 PM UTC

ams6110 wrote: post #14

alex_young wrote: post #3

How can PayPal rationalize closing accounts because users opened them years ago when they were too young? Is that really an issue for a 28 year old? Contract or no, PayPal looks really bad here. One would think they would be looking for good will rather than this kind of press in such a competitive market.

Because they have an ass-covering-oriented legal team who will say "the user was unable to legally agree to the terms" thefore we (PayPal) will be vulnerable if they were to do something fraudulent.

Why not ask accepting terms NOW or else account will be blocked on m/d/y?