‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances • Hacker News Board

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#11

Post by haltingproblem » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 7:34 PM UTC

firasd wrote: post #9

haltingproblem wrote: post #5

Lets step back and pose a meta question - how does a state go about providing services to its citizen if the state cannot identify citizens as its own and as unique entities. Both being necessary conditions. A well functioning state needs to be a strong (sorry libertarians) and benign (cf. Somalia and North Korea) to take care of its citizens. You can take birth, live and die in a weak state without the State ever kn…

First of all, Aadhaar is not just being used for welfare schemes. It is a giant database getting linked to everything. I wouldn't be surprised if it will soon be mandatory for booking flights. Plus much of the database has leaked. You can find thousands of Aadhar cards online just by googling. As far as preventing 'leakage'--the best approach would be to not subsidize products but to move to direct benefits transfer…

And how do you provide DBT - direct benefits transfer - to whom? How do you qualify them? Underpinning all this is identity.

A modern state that cannot establish identity is not very useful.

(Wow, I am being downvoted).

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#12

Post by firasd » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 7:40 PM UTC

haltingproblem wrote: post #11

firasd wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all, Aadhaar is not just being used for welfare schemes. It is a giant database getting linked to everything. I wouldn't be surprised if it will soon be mandatory for booking flights. Plus much of the database has leaked. You can find thousands of Aadhar cards online just by googling. As far as preventing 'leakage'--the best approach would be to not subsidize products but to move to direct benefits transfer…

And how do you provide DBT - direct benefits transfer - to whom? How do you qualify them? Underpinning all this is identity. A modern state that cannot establish identity is not very useful. (Wow, I am being downvoted).

The money goes into people's bank accounts which already have many know-your-customer ID requirements. If also requiring Aadhaar for bank accounts was the limit of its mandate there would be a lot less outrage. The creeping, maximalist scope is what causes the increasing discomfort among people about this program.

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#13

Post by haltingproblem » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 7:47 PM UTC

firasd wrote: post #12

haltingproblem wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how do you provide DBT - direct benefits transfer - to whom? How do you qualify them? Underpinning all this is identity. A modern state that cannot establish identity is not very useful. (Wow, I am being downvoted).

The money goes into people's bank accounts which already have many know-your-customer ID requirements. If also requiring Aadhaar for bank accounts was the limit of its mandate there would be a lot less outrage. The creeping, maximalist scope is what causes the increasing discomfort among people about this program.

So the bank was able to fulfill KYC requirements for someone who qualifies for a below the poverty level scheme?

Lack of papers is what Aadhaar is supposed to cure.

You are passing the identity buck. These people are so poor they live their whole lives without a solid roof over their head.

They don't have a birth certificate, a driver's license, a passport. The mere mention of these documents is somewhat of a cruel joke in their economic context.

They would have to give up a significant part of the benefits to middlemen in the old system.

(edited).

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#14

Post by thetruthseeker1 » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 7:50 PM UTC

I disagree with the assessment. It seems like any form in which the government tries to identify you is being compared to the scary Orwellian dystopia. There is no cost benefit analysis. Sure it could be misused, however it can also be used in a super beneficial way. India is a country where some Indians have never obatained birth certificates, there was no equivalent SSN system, often resources are poorly distributed because there are scams where a person claims to be somebody else or there is no clear identification system, all of this significantly affect the GDP and the rate at which people’s std of life is improved. I think if it gets misused , then the solution to that is regulation and better management, not no collection.

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#15

Post by rohit2412 » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 7:50 PM UTC

reaperducer wrote: post #8

haltingproblem wrote: post #5

Lets step back and pose a meta question - how does a state go about providing services to its citizen if the state cannot identify citizens as its own and as unique entities. Both being necessary conditions. A well functioning state needs to be a strong (sorry libertarians) and benign (cf. Somalia and North Korea) to take care of its citizens. You can take birth, live and die in a weak state without the State ever kn…

> how does a state go about providing services to its citizen if the state cannot identify citizens as its own and as unique entities. Both being necessary conditions. Are they, really? It's not like the government is buying people cars. They're handing out food to starving children. If people are hungry, give them food. Don't make them jump through hoops for it. Perhaps my problem is that I see it as an American. Am…

>> Americans are citizens of their country whether they can prove it or not.

Tell that to the undocumented immigrants. You forget that you have a birth certificate to prove you are a citizen.

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#16

Post by zo1 » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 7:56 PM UTC

reaperducer wrote: post #8

haltingproblem wrote: post #5

Lets step back and pose a meta question - how does a state go about providing services to its citizen if the state cannot identify citizens as its own and as unique entities. Both being necessary conditions. A well functioning state needs to be a strong (sorry libertarians) and benign (cf. Somalia and North Korea) to take care of its citizens. You can take birth, live and die in a weak state without the State ever kn…

> how does a state go about providing services to its citizen if the state cannot identify citizens as its own and as unique entities. Both being necessary conditions. Are they, really? It's not like the government is buying people cars. They're handing out food to starving children. If people are hungry, give them food. Don't make them jump through hoops for it. Perhaps my problem is that I see it as an American. Am…

No, you really aren't a citizen unless you jump through hoops. The reason you don't see that is because you've existed as a citizen since birth on whatever citizen roll/database, with a citizenship link by virtue of your parents.

Maybe you get a free-pass as a baby/child/orphan. But as an adult, you don't get to just "appear" onto the electronic grid of citizen presence. If there were such a mechanism and it were easy and devoid of "loops" then illegal immigrants would have exploited it by now to become citizens.

You may think you're a citizen, but you are not unless you have the blessing of your government.

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#17

Post by firasd » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 7:58 PM UTC

haltingproblem wrote: post #13

firasd wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The money goes into people's bank accounts which already have many know-your-customer ID requirements. If also requiring Aadhaar for bank accounts was the limit of its mandate there would be a lot less outrage. The creeping, maximalist scope is what causes the increasing discomfort among people about this program.

So the bank was able to fulfill KYC requirements for someone who qualifies for a below the poverty level scheme? Lack of papers is what Aadhaar is supposed to cure. You are passing the identity buck. These people are so poor they live their whole lives without a solid roof over their head. They don't have a birth certificate, a driver's license, a passport. The mere mention of these documents is somewhat of a cruel j…

Yes, even the very poor in India have voter IDs and the schemes in question already require a ration card. You started off by asking about how to reduce corruption (and I answered that as long as there are subsidies there is going to be leakage) but you keep bringing it back to some airy theoretical concept about 'identity in the state' when Aadhaar is a practical force in the country right now. I haven't linked my Aadhaar to my phone yet and if the Supreme Court hadn't extended the deadline my phone would have stopped working by now. This thing is a real and present menace, not just a political science question.

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#18

Post by zo1 » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 7:59 PM UTC

rohit2412 wrote: post #15

reaperducer wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> how does a state go about providing services to its citizen if the state cannot identify citizens as its own and as unique entities. Both being necessary conditions. Are they, really? It's not like the government is buying people cars. They're handing out food to starving children. If people are hungry, give them food. Don't make them jump through hoops for it. Perhaps my problem is that I see it as an American. Am…

>> Americans are citizens of their country whether they can prove it or not. Tell that to the undocumented immigrants. You forget that you have a birth certificate to prove you are a citizen.

So then why don't they go and apply to be documented? I'm sure their foreign birth certificate is enough to prove their existence. Oh, that's right, it's illegal and would get declined. Hence the correct term: "illegal immigrants". The topic is complicated and touchy enough without it being muddled with incorrect terminology.

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#19

Post by shripadk » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 8:09 PM UTC

mindslight wrote: post #3

> "If you are not able to prove your identity, you are disenfranchised," he said. "You have no existence." This is so fucking disingenuous, and really demonstrates the heart of the problem. If you create a bunch of systems that rely on totalitarian cataloging of humans for their basics of every day life, then when some individuals aren't tracked it sure looks like those individuals' problem. But really the problem is…

How do you efficiently distribute benefits if you cannot ascertain if the individual is a Citizen, hasn't already taken his/her fair share or isn't scamming the exchequer?

You may disagree with the idea but in a country which has a very small tax base and caters to a huge population efficiently distributing benefits becomes the most important priority. Up until Aadhaar, the benefits meant for illiterate/lower income group were swindled by scamsters who used their identities to procure the benefits.

There was no way to ascertain if the individual was really below poverty line and that s/he hadn't taken more than his/her fair share of the benefits using a stolen identity. We can always debate issues of privacy endlessly but arrive at no conclusion which can actually solve the core issues. The core issue being that for the poorest of the poor, privacy is secondary to survival.

For some added perspective, here is a famous quote by Ex-Prime Minister of India, Rajiv Gandhi in 1985 (on a visit to drought-affected Kalahandi district, Odisha): "Of every rupee spent by the government, only 15 paise reached the intended beneficiary". Have you ever heard a top executive head of any other country publicly accept and go on record that 85% of the intended amount never reached the poor and needy? That 85% of the amount was swindled away by corrupt means?

Even this article admits it rather reluctantly: "Officials estimate that taxpayers have saved at least $9.4 billion from Aadhaar by weeding out “ghosts” and other improper beneficiaries of government services."

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#20

Post by Zak » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 8:14 PM UTC

thetruthseeker1 wrote: post #14

I disagree with the assessment. It seems like any form in which the government tries to identify you is being compared to the scary Orwellian dystopia. There is no cost benefit analysis. Sure it could be misused, however it can also be used in a super beneficial way. India is a country where some Indians have never obatained birth certificates, there was no equivalent SSN system, often resources are poorly distribute…

I think it's a mixed bag.

Not Orwellian:

* Requiring identification to get welfare benefits. The article mentions fraud is a big issue.

* Use of biometrics. It sounds creepy at first, but without a robust system of record keeping to base the ID card on, this is a good way to ensure each one is unique.

Orwellian:

* Requiring a government ID to enter a middle school art contest.

* Requiring a government ID to buy a prepaid SIM card.