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Tesla crash in September showed similarities to fatal Mountain View accident

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Re: Tesla crash in September showed similarities to fatal Mountain View accident

#11

Post by brandmeyer »

z6 wrote: post #7
bobsil1 wrote: post #3

Gore point stripe faded: https://imgur.com/a/xHq57 Street View: https://www.google.com/maps/@37.6346515,-122.104109,3a,75y,8...

No real excuse for Tesla, but seriously why are our roads so bad. This is one of the wealthiest areas in the world and a busy stretch of road.

> but seriously why are our roads so bad.

Degraded paint does not a bad road make. Roads are optimized for human drivers that can leverage additional context to make their decisions. Many countries don't even bother to stripe their roads at all.

Re: Tesla crash in September showed similarities to fatal Mountain View accident

#12

Post by bobsil1 »

gonehome wrote: post #4
bobsil1 wrote: post #3

Gore point stripe faded: https://imgur.com/a/xHq57 Street View: https://www.google.com/maps/@37.6346515,-122.104109,3a,75y,8...

Can somebody just go out there and paint the road? There have been at least two other video near collisions of people driving on that section - it seems dangerous.

Agree. Note, this is a different gore point (92/880) than the one from the 85/101 crash.

Re: Tesla crash in September showed similarities to fatal Mountain View accident

#13

Post by bobsil1 »

Someone1234 wrote: post #5
bobsil1 wrote: post #3

Gore point stripe faded: https://imgur.com/a/xHq57 Street View: https://www.google.com/maps/@37.6346515,-122.104109,3a,75y,8...

If your point is "Autopilot only works on perfect roads" then they might have well pull the plug right now. Dirt, snow, rain, fog, dark, and other common conditions could obscure even correctly painted lines, and it just isn't realistic to expect perfect roads throughout such a large network anyway (in particular as human drivers can infer the line is meant to be there from the neighboring lines). At its core, a syst…

Both Tesla and Waymo are at too low an abstraction level for resilience. Cars need to understand roads/walls as concepts and make common sense inferences.

Re: Tesla crash in September showed similarities to fatal Mountain View accident

#14

Post by jijojv »

bobsil1 wrote: post #13
Someone1234 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your point is "Autopilot only works on perfect roads" then they might have well pull the plug right now. Dirt, snow, rain, fog, dark, and other common conditions could obscure even correctly painted lines, and it just isn't realistic to expect perfect roads throughout such a large network anyway (in particular as human drivers can infer the line is meant to be there from the neighboring lines). At its core, a syst…

Both Tesla and Waymo are at too low an abstraction level for resilience. Cars need to understand roads/walls as concepts and make common sense inferences.

They're not comparable at all. Google/Waymo uses lidar and has been at it since 2009 and per https://waymo.com/faq they are "fully automated vehicle" but alas not for sale yet.

Tesla's self-driving vaporware being sold since Oct'16 is camera only and should be activated any day now ?

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/823632597284691969 " Yes, safety should improve significantly due to autonomy features, even if regs disallow no driver present 23 Jan 2017"

3 months maybe, 6 months definitely 23 Jan 2017

Re: Tesla crash in September showed similarities to fatal Mountain View accident

#15

Post by [deleted] »

jijojv wrote: post #10
Someone1234 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your point is "Autopilot only works on perfect roads" then they might have well pull the plug right now. Dirt, snow, rain, fog, dark, and other common conditions could obscure even correctly painted lines, and it just isn't realistic to expect perfect roads throughout such a large network anyway (in particular as human drivers can infer the line is meant to be there from the neighboring lines). At its core, a syst…

Agreed. That was in Chicago. It also was reproduced exactly in CA crash location in https://electrek.co/2018/04/03/tesla-autopilot-crash-barrier...

[deleted]

Re: Tesla crash in September showed similarities to fatal Mountain View accident

#16

Post by otalp »

jijojv wrote: post #2

Week after the fatal accident Musk continues to promote Autopilot as safe by retweeting stuff like https://twitter.com/Teslarati/status/980476745106231297 Tesla Model S navigates one of Vienna’s ‘crappiest’ roads on Autopilot IIHS '17 study puts Autopilot at only reducing 40% accidents which is the same as their '16 study which had the same 40% reduction for any car with Auto Emergency Braking.

What does Musk have to do for him to be investigated for misleading consumers or fraud?

Re: Tesla crash in September showed similarities to fatal Mountain View accident

#17

Post by ChuckMcM »

I have now talked with two people who have autopilot in their model S's and both said the problem with autopilot is that it is "too good". Specifically it works completely correctly like 80 - 90% of the time and as a result, if you use it a lot, you start to expect it to be working and not fail. If it beeps then to tell you to take over, you have to mentally get back into the situational awareness of the road and then decide what to do about it. If that lag time is longer then the time the car has given you to respond, you would likely crash.

Makes me wonder how this gets resolved without jumping through the gap to 'perfect' autopilot.

Re: Tesla crash in September showed similarities to fatal Mountain View accident

#18

Post by bobsil1 »

jijojv wrote: post #14
bobsil1 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both Tesla and Waymo are at too low an abstraction level for resilience. Cars need to understand roads/walls as concepts and make common sense inferences.

They're not comparable at all. Google/Waymo uses lidar and has been at it since 2009 and per https://waymo.com/faq they are "fully automated vehicle" but alas not for sale yet. Tesla's self-driving vaporware being sold since Oct'16 is camera only and should be activated any day now ? https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/823632597284691969 " Yes, safety should improve significantly due to autonomy features, even if reg…

Waymo’s approach is also brittle, e.g. to changes in the road since the last map pass.

Tesla also uses radar and ultrasonic. Lidar isn’t necessary, just makes depth measurement easier. It’s lower res than cameras, low range, power-inefficient, conflicts with other lidar. Humans drive fine in sunlight, without a coherent IR scanning beam.

Re: Tesla crash in September showed similarities to fatal Mountain View accident

#19

Post by bobsil1 »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #17

I have now talked with two people who have autopilot in their model S's and both said the problem with autopilot is that it is "too good". Specifically it works completely correctly like 80 - 90% of the time and as a result, if you use it a lot, you start to expect it to be working and not fail. If it beeps then to tell you to take over, you have to mentally get back into the situational awareness of the road and the…

Yep, it degrades badly, like digital cellular calls which drop out suddenly.

Re: Tesla crash in September showed similarities to fatal Mountain View accident

#20

Post by daodedickinson »

z6 wrote: post #7
bobsil1 wrote: post #3

Gore point stripe faded: https://imgur.com/a/xHq57 Street View: https://www.google.com/maps/@37.6346515,-122.104109,3a,75y,8...

No real excuse for Tesla, but seriously why are our roads so bad. This is one of the wealthiest areas in the world and a busy stretch of road.

When I lived in California, I was shocked at how bad the roads are and how poor the signage was (since many of the signs get stolen and are not replaced for months or years). A moderate thunderstorm knocked out power in some parts of LA for weeks. It really seems like there are some parts of the government and utilities that are sclerotic.
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