Live data from Hacker News

How poverty changes your mindset

review.chicagobooth.edu

11–20 of 559 posts

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#11
post #2

> That’s the correct financial decision, according to traditional economics—to drive the extra distance no matter the original cost. Saving $50 is the same regardless of the amount of the item in question. But wealthier participants saw the savings in relative terms, noticing the percentage savings. By contrast, poorer participants thought in absolute terms. To them, $50 saved was $50 to spend on groceries or the ele…

Not really. There is the notion of opportunity cost. 30' might be worth your time, unless investing that time, either working, or even resting, paid you back e.g. > $50. If you expect yourself to make less than $50 an hour (assuming you have to drive back (?), otherwise $100) then that would be a good deal. It depends on your model of course. After some point spending 30' to get $50 off is crazy, if you are struggling to make time for your family.

Either the article does a poor job describing the research, or I find it somewhat incomplete. I mean there is an inherent misconception that $1000 item/asset is much much better than a $300 equivalent. I am curious how that affects the valuation between different groups of individuals.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#12
post #7

It's not poverty. It's stress. Poverty is very stressful. Any kind of stress stops people from acting the way they normally would be inclined to act. It takes a lot of conditioning and practice to deal with stress without having it impact you and your performance. Take a little stress off your staff, and instantly everyone starts making better decisions, their work seems more focused. As a manager, the best thing I c…

It's also mental. When I was poor and finally got a "student" class credit card, i knew paying off the month's bill was the best option economically, i still could not get around the idea of giving up all my "cash" (money in the bank) to pay off the debt. Even though i could have simply paid off and then should something come up, use the zero balance credit card. No, i still wanted cash available. Knowing this was not the logical option.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#13
post #3

This is not the first time this article has come up, and as usual I'll give my 2c. What qualifies me to talk about this issue? I was raised in the UK on income support, single mother, social housing, low income city etc; Now the situation has changed somewhat in the UK; back then in the UK it was possible to get by without going into debt if you were smart about things and I believe this no longer to be the case, but…

she will treat her time as unlimited in finding similar quality goods for less money

It is interesting you say this. I have a friend who struggles to get by. Single mom, two kids, a father who does the absolute bare minimum to provide support to his kids, and she is unemployed.

She does get support from the state (rent assistance, energy assistance, SNAP), but it is barely enough to squeak by and what little money is left over is quickly consumed with unexpected expenses.

With that said, I find she spends an exorbitant amount of time searching for "deals". It is not far-fetched for her to spend 2-3 hours to save a $1 on something. While apps like ebates, ibotta, etc.. have made these quick deals better, they still don't cut down on the time she spends. With the apps she spends just as much time searching through the deals or trying to find the best store to get something.

While it can be frustrating at times as a third-party sitting back watching her do this, I can somewhat sympathize. The most frustrating part to me is that she will sometimes say that there is not enough time in the day to get things done. I try to convey to her that at some point time is money. Meaning that she needs to evaluate the opportunity cost of saving a dollar versus spending 2-3 hours to save that dollar.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#14
post #2

> That’s the correct financial decision, according to traditional economics—to drive the extra distance no matter the original cost. Saving $50 is the same regardless of the amount of the item in question. But wealthier participants saw the savings in relative terms, noticing the percentage savings. By contrast, poorer participants thought in absolute terms. To them, $50 saved was $50 to spend on groceries or the ele…

[deleted]

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#15
I'm sure how people deal with stress and difficult situations varies from person to person. My personal story and 2-cents:

When I was 17 I went through a period of near destitute. I was living on my own, my father had passed away, and I had dropped out of school. Yet, I found myself with some very good jobs, such as GE Capital, a big Oil and Gas companies IT department, etc.

Regardless of the opportunity, my arrogance, ambivalence, or immaturity (take your pick) cost me a series of good jobs in short order. The result was I had no money, no electricity, no gas for my car, and not much to do. Eating cold beans out of a can in the dark tends to force you to re-think your priorities.

In my case, I got very motivated very quickly and dug myself out of that hole after a few months. I think that's the point Orrin Hatch was trying to make. If I had a fallback, I would have, without a doubt, kept coasting along from job to job. I've never looked at work or money the same way since as I never want to find myself there again.

So long story short, being poor (by my own doing) didn't necessarily motivate me, but looking into oblivion sure as hell did.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#16
post #2

> That’s the correct financial decision, according to traditional economics—to drive the extra distance no matter the original cost. Saving $50 is the same regardless of the amount of the item in question. But wealthier participants saw the savings in relative terms, noticing the percentage savings. By contrast, poorer participants thought in absolute terms. To them, $50 saved was $50 to spend on groceries or the ele…

Not really. There is the notion of opportunity cost. 30' might be worth your time, unless investing that time, either working, or even resting, paid you back e.g. > $50. If you expect yourself to make less than $50 an hour (assuming you have to drive back (?), otherwise $100) then that would be a good deal. It depends on your model of course. After some point spending 30' to get $50 off is crazy, if you are strugglin…

> I mean there is an inherent misconception that $1000 item/asset is much much better than a $300 equivalent.

That's not how I read it -- the authors were not assigning a qualitative value to the items, only a quantitative one. They did not need to be the same 'type' of asset. It was just that when comparing the savings - 50/300 vs 50/1000 - some people considered the ratio more important than the numerator.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#17
post #12
post #7

It's not poverty. It's stress. Poverty is very stressful. Any kind of stress stops people from acting the way they normally would be inclined to act. It takes a lot of conditioning and practice to deal with stress without having it impact you and your performance. Take a little stress off your staff, and instantly everyone starts making better decisions, their work seems more focused. As a manager, the best thing I c…

It's also mental. When I was poor and finally got a "student" class credit card, i knew paying off the month's bill was the best option economically, i still could not get around the idea of giving up all my "cash" (money in the bank) to pay off the debt. Even though i could have simply paid off and then should something come up, use the zero balance credit card. No, i still wanted cash available. Knowing this was no…

The value of cash liquidity seems deep within much economic activity.

It's what, essentially, Adam Smith railed against in Wealth of Nations, arguing that wealth was not gold and silver (liquidity) but real produce and labour capacity. And yet much present economic theory and practice is only so much neomerchantilism.

This makes me suspect a real foundation, at least psychologically, to the behaviour.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#18
post #9
post #2

> That’s the correct financial decision, according to traditional economics—to drive the extra distance no matter the original cost. Saving $50 is the same regardless of the amount of the item in question. But wealthier participants saw the savings in relative terms, noticing the percentage savings. By contrast, poorer participants thought in absolute terms. To them, $50 saved was $50 to spend on groceries or the ele…

You're misunderstanding the question they've posed people. In either situation, the question is "is half an hour of transit worth $50 to you." Whether it's $50 saved on a $300 item or a $1000 item has no impact on the $ saved per minute.

I'd be interested to know if there was some sort of priming effect going on. With the wealthier people thinking more in percentage terms rather than absolute price, they might expect that the $1000 tablet would be discounted more in the future (if the $300 tablet can be 17% off, why not the $1000 tablet?) and decide to wait it out.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#19
post #4
post #2

> That’s the correct financial decision, according to traditional economics—to drive the extra distance no matter the original cost. Saving $50 is the same regardless of the amount of the item in question. But wealthier participants saw the savings in relative terms, noticing the percentage savings. By contrast, poorer participants thought in absolute terms. To them, $50 saved was $50 to spend on groceries or the ele…

It’s a lot harder to quantify and value headspace. Is there a way? I was expecting the article to quantify it in reduced IQ, but it went the other way.

Quantifying IQ is hard enough - quantifying deltas based on subjective rates of poverty? That'd be a courageous goal.

Authors set out to demonstrate qualitative cognitive differences between people suffering with scarcity (primarily cash) and those not.

People suffering with scarcity have a cognitive load that the 'not' category does not -- I don't think that translates to reduced IQ, but was demonstrated to translate to 'more bad decisions' via heightened and persistent cognitive load.

ADDENDA: From the outside looking in, that phenomenon may be misunderstood by an observer to indicate a causal relationship between bad decision making and poverty. TFA makes the case that causality is inverse to common (by governments, elites, etc) interpretation.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#20

If you are poor you cannot shop sales the same what you can if you have money. Stocking up on items is not really an option.

I think you mean buying in bulk. Buying in bulk is great but often not because if it is food it might go bad before you eat it and if you are poor your limited on space... so huge packs of items don't fit well in your tiny space. Plus the up front cost is a real killer since the money is saved over time. And if you have more of something you might end up using more because it's convenient. And finally if you are splitting rent with many people they will help themselves to the bulk items.
Post reply on HN