At this moment, the following article is sitting right next to this one on the front page, which is great:
Social Problems in Computer Science
11–20 of 25 posts
Re: Social Problems in Computer Science
#12"Person A: I need to reinstall this computer with Debian, but I don’t have a CD or DVD burner or any flash media. I’m not sure if I have any other options. Could you help me? Person B: I don’t have time. Just use PXE." The author is contriving a bullshit situation to make her point. If Person A is unwilling to ask what PXE is for fear of looking stupid, then they sure as shit aren't going to explicitly ask for help.…
> The author is contriving a bullshit situation to make her point. I have been in these situations. They aren't bullshit. When you get a ton of good hackers in one area and a newbie comes in, it's a crapshoot. Nobody wants to hold someone's hand while they stumble around, fucking everything up in the process. "I've got things to do." It's NOT a bullshit situation.
That's not what I'm calling bullshit. Keep reading.
Re: Social Problems in Computer Science
#13Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The author is contriving a bullshit situation to make her point. I have been in these situations. They aren't bullshit. When you get a ton of good hackers in one area and a newbie comes in, it's a crapshoot. Nobody wants to hold someone's hand while they stumble around, fucking everything up in the process. "I've got things to do." It's NOT a bullshit situation.
That's not what I'm calling bullshit. Keep reading.
Yes it is.
You're saying person A is to blame, at least a little bit. And you're wrong. Person A is just trying to learn. Person A is doing everything they know how to do in order to further their knowledge.
They asked. They googled. They spent an hour trying to figure it out on their own. Why didn't they just ask person B again? Because they got shut out the first time. They got a response that told them "fuck off, you're not worth my time. i'm busy" instead of "Sorry, you should read about using PXE to netboot from the BIOS". They just said "use pxe". If a person doesn't know about pxe, they sure as hell don't know that it requires BIOS settings.
Person A is doing everything he/she can to learn. And Person B is being an obstacle.
Re: Social Problems in Computer Science
#14Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's not what I'm calling bullshit. Keep reading.
Yes it is. You're saying person A is to blame, at least a little bit. And you're wrong. Person A is just trying to learn. Person A is doing everything they know how to do in order to further their knowledge. They asked. They googled. They spent an hour trying to figure it out on their own. Why didn't they just ask person B again? Because they got shut out the first time. They got a response that told them "fuck off,…
Person A is doing everything he/she can to learn.
Except ask what PXE is. If they had done that, Person B would've known that they needed all the help you're talking about, but he didn't because Person A didn't ask. People aren't mindreaders.
Re: Social Problems in Computer Science
#15Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes it is. You're saying person A is to blame, at least a little bit. And you're wrong. Person A is just trying to learn. Person A is doing everything they know how to do in order to further their knowledge. They asked. They googled. They spent an hour trying to figure it out on their own. Why didn't they just ask person B again? Because they got shut out the first time. They got a response that told them "fuck off,…
Person A is doing everything he/she can to learn. Except ask what PXE is. If they had done that, Person B would've known that they needed all the help you're talking about, but he didn't because Person A didn't ask. People aren't mindreaders.
The fact that Person A didn't know that he could use PXE to solve his problem ILLUSTRATES that he doesn't know what PXE is. He shouldn't need to take step 2 and ask "What's PXE?" because it's OBVIOUS. You don't need to be a mindreader.
Re: Social Problems in Computer Science
#16Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes it is. You're saying person A is to blame, at least a little bit. And you're wrong. Person A is just trying to learn. Person A is doing everything they know how to do in order to further their knowledge. They asked. They googled. They spent an hour trying to figure it out on their own. Why didn't they just ask person B again? Because they got shut out the first time. They got a response that told them "fuck off,…
Person A is doing everything he/she can to learn. Except ask what PXE is. If they had done that, Person B would've known that they needed all the help you're talking about, but he didn't because Person A didn't ask. People aren't mindreaders.
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Re: Social Problems in Computer Science
#17Person A is a moron. It took me about 3 min with google to figure out what PXE was, and 2 more to find an "install Ubuntu with pxe" tutorial.
If women (or any other group) needs that level of spoonfeeding, no wonder they can't hack it in tech.
Re: Social Problems in Computer Science
#18Earlier quoted context omitted.
Person A is doing everything he/she can to learn. Except ask what PXE is. If they had done that, Person B would've known that they needed all the help you're talking about, but he didn't because Person A didn't ask. People aren't mindreaders.
The fact that Person A didn't know that he could use PXE to solve his problem ILLUSTRATES that he doesn't know what PXE is. He shouldn't need to take step 2 and ask "What's PXE?" because it's OBVIOUS. You don't need to be a mindreader.
If you're going to expect the person with the answers to take the mental effort to figure out what the questioner does and does not understand, then I think it's also reasonable to expect the questioner to be honest and say "I don't understand what you just said" when it's true.
You claim it's obvious what the questioner does not know. I claim it's not. This is why teaching is hard. Having the answers is not enough. The hard part is sussing out what the student's incomplete or incorrect understanding is, then guiding them to something more complete and correct. This takes time, patience, and a surprising amount of effort on the part of the teacher. If you don't believe me, then try teaching people with zero programming experience how to program.
When it's someone's job to do that, well, that's their job. Students are often reluctant to say "I don't know what you just said." I had to read their faces to gauge understanding, or I'd have to ask them to repeat back to me, in their own words, what I just explained.
But we're talking about peers. And if peers are going to learn from each other, then there should be an understanding that teaching is hard, and that the person asking the questions has just as much (if not more) of a duty to be honest.
Re: Social Problems in Computer Science
#19Earlier quoted context omitted.
Person A is doing everything he/she can to learn. Except ask what PXE is. If they had done that, Person B would've known that they needed all the help you're talking about, but he didn't because Person A didn't ask. People aren't mindreaders.
The fact that Person A didn't know that he could use PXE to solve his problem ILLUSTRATES that he doesn't know what PXE is. He shouldn't need to take step 2 and ask "What's PXE?" because it's OBVIOUS. You don't need to be a mindreader.
I think how easy it would be to follow up with "what's PXE?" would be completely dependent on Person A's perception of Person B's attitude. If Person B seemed like a jerk, they'd be a lot less likely to ask.
Re: Social Problems in Computer Science
#20Earlier quoted context omitted.
The fact that Person A didn't know that he could use PXE to solve his problem ILLUSTRATES that he doesn't know what PXE is. He shouldn't need to take step 2 and ask "What's PXE?" because it's OBVIOUS. You don't need to be a mindreader.
If you're going to expect the person with the answers to take the mental effort to figure out what the questioner does and does not understand, then I think it's also reasonable to expect the questioner to be honest and say "I don't understand what you just said" when it's true. You claim it's obvious what the questioner does not know. I claim it's not. This is why teaching is hard. Having the answers is not enough.…
I will definitely concede your point. Teaching is not easy.
But I do have to say that in this PARTICULAR example, not knowing that PXE is the solution is a very clear, very easy to grasp next step to not knowing what PXE is.
But you're right in general.