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Ketamine blocks bursting in the lateral habenula to rapidly relieve depression

nature.com

11–20 of 80 posts

Re: Ketamine blocks bursting in the lateral habenula to rapidly relieve depression

#11

I know it's anecdotal, but I've been receiving ketamine at a local clinic for a few years for chronic depression and a spinal injury. It has proven too be the most effective treatment I've had for treating depression. As another poster said, it is short lived (around two months) But the release from depression, and back pain is life changing for me. To go with the article, it is incredibly fast acting. Like same day…

How specific is the dose? Do they calibrate it by weight or body fat or anything?

Re: Ketamine blocks bursting in the lateral habenula to rapidly relieve depression

#13

Isn't regular Ketamine use especially bad for the bladder? I recall reading multiple anecdotes from the Erowid ketamine vaults where people lost their bladders due to recreational Ketamine use.

yes https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27001627

Re: Ketamine blocks bursting in the lateral habenula to rapidly relieve depression

#14

This is actually one of two papers published by the lab in Nature. The papers together go much further than just describing the mechanism of action of ketamine and propose a potential mechanism for a cause of depression. Kir4.1 paper: https://www.nature.com/articles/nature25752

This is really great. I'm excited to read these fully unpaywalled later. I'm interested to see how they'll test this in humans PET or fMRI scanning perhaps possibly before/after depressed patients taking antidepressants/therapy/ketamine/etc...

Re: Ketamine blocks bursting in the lateral habenula to rapidly relieve depression

#15

I have been looking into Ketamine as there is a clinic which administers Ketamine therapy in my area. The disappointing thing is that it looks like the effects are short lived, and one may need "booster" treatments every 4 weeks, at $400 a shot, for years and possibly forever. I hope with this understanding, we come up with something more permanent.

curious: are you based in the US? Would it not be covered by insurance? $400/shot is a lot for Ketamine.

Re: Ketamine blocks bursting in the lateral habenula to rapidly relieve depression

#16
i did some work around ketamine a few years ago and many physicians i spoke with said it was incredibly helpful for their patients. however there are many others who have said it doesnt work for many of their patients. there are many studies that suggest it works and a lot of other unpublished data suggesting maybe it isnt as great

the mechanism of action is also poorly understood, and while this article may certainly be an important mechanism, ketamine is a "dirty" drug with many potentially active components that act in ways we dont understand

ketamine is also a drug that has been fda approved for anesthesia for years. to properly study its effects in depression would require large clinical studies. however, the drug is off patent, and no company will fund this work

other companies have developed "new" drugs that are structurally similar to ketamine, but different enough to patent. in 2015 allergan bought a company called naurex that had a few phase 2 drugs that acted on the NMDA receptor (the main receptor that ketamine is thought to act on, though there are others -- hence it being a "dirty" drug) but with some chemical modifications aimed at getting the antidepressant effects of ketamine without the "bad" dissociative effects. however, several docs i spoke with said that there isnt sufficient evidence that their chemical only gets the "good" effects, and it may actually be less effective than ketamine because they removed some of the chemical structure that moderated depression. the real reason they used a new chemical was so they could patent it

J&J has another similar product, called esketamine, is an enantiomer of ketamine (imagine ketamine occurred in two forms, a left hand and a right hand one. esketamine is just the left hand version without the right hand). they also deliver it intranasally (while the approved ketamine formulation is IV). both of these tactics help extend patent life or exclusivity. they published phase 2 data last december that looked pretty good

these companies will probably aggressively market their drugs as "better" than ketamine because they have "improved" the chemistry, although there are no data to definitively state this. many anesthesiologists currently offer ketamine treatment for depression, though it is not widely reimbursed or offered. i believe some groups reimburse for it though. it can be expensive because you need to be supervised when you take it, so you have to pay for the time of a medical professional to monitor you.

as others have noted though, the effects wear off basically right after you stop taking the drug. some people are studying a protocol where you "jolt" someone into a non-depressed state with ketamine, and then stop ketamine treatment and start treating them with CBT or another form of therapy. jury is still out on whether this works though seems promising

Re: Ketamine blocks bursting in the lateral habenula to rapidly relieve depression

#17

Isn't regular Ketamine use especially bad for the bladder? I recall reading multiple anecdotes from the Erowid ketamine vaults where people lost their bladders due to recreational Ketamine use.

As the other poster said, yes. China is dealing with a fairly grim pattern of ketamine abuse cystitis.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S187952261...

http://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-asia-china-33472971/inside-...

Re: Ketamine blocks bursting in the lateral habenula to rapidly relieve depression

#18

This really, really works. I experimented for years with it after reading about trials. I'd be happy to answer questions.

Where did you get it, and how did you administer it?

Ketamine is available both as a veterinary medicine and is used as an emergency anesthetic (usually for setting broken bones) because it doesn't require an anesthesiologist.

Where I obtained it-- Darknet. I used veterinary needles to do an IM injection. There are also analogues that can be snorted.

Re: Ketamine blocks bursting in the lateral habenula to rapidly relieve depression

#19

I know it's anecdotal, but I've been receiving ketamine at a local clinic for a few years for chronic depression and a spinal injury. It has proven too be the most effective treatment I've had for treating depression. As another poster said, it is short lived (around two months) But the release from depression, and back pain is life changing for me. To go with the article, it is incredibly fast acting. Like same day…

Any side-effects? Bladder/urinary issues? What happens to you as it wears off?

Re: Ketamine blocks bursting in the lateral habenula to rapidly relieve depression

#20

Isn't regular Ketamine use especially bad for the bladder? I recall reading multiple anecdotes from the Erowid ketamine vaults where people lost their bladders due to recreational Ketamine use.

It's a huge problem for recreational use. Some individuals have trouble with it even with prescription ketamine, but it's not nearly as common. Last time I asked him, my doctor hasn't had any patients who were forced to discontinue treatment because of it.

n=1, but I've been receiving ketamine therapy for about 6 years and have not developed ketamine cystitis.

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