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The full-time job of keeping up with Kubernetes

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Re: The full-time job of keeping up with Kubernetes

#11
post #5

This reads like a giant ad for GKE. It emphasizes several times to just use GKE for pretty lame reasons (Google has good SREs and Google started the project). The people that work on upstream k8s in Google (Tim et al) have a pretty limited overlap with the Google Cloud people that run GKE. Upstream k8s is a full time job so they are most certainly not spending their time also writing internal GKE code. I don't have a…

I dunno, if it's an ad for GKE, then "you typically have only about nine months until the latest version goes out of support" is indeed pretty persuasive marketing to me to let someone else deal with it.

Re: The full-time job of keeping up with Kubernetes

#12
post #5

This reads like a giant ad for GKE. It emphasizes several times to just use GKE for pretty lame reasons (Google has good SREs and Google started the project). The people that work on upstream k8s in Google (Tim et al) have a pretty limited overlap with the Google Cloud people that run GKE. Upstream k8s is a full time job so they are most certainly not spending their time also writing internal GKE code. I don't have a…

Author here. I do have a bias toward GKE but that is after trying to use everything else -- DIY, kubespray, OpenShift, Juju, Tectonic, Azure, Fargate, kops, Rancher v2 preview, kubeadm, etc. In my experience nothing (yet) has been as nice and clean as Google Cloud.

Re: The full-time job of keeping up with Kubernetes

#13
post #6
post #2

There aught to be a name to the tendency that as tools get better and better, the more your time goes from having your mind in technical-space to social and news-space. It's like the authority to create goes from the individual first-principles (by necessity) maker, to the control over development being in the hands of an external group, and then all your time is spent keeping up with what they're doing. A similar th…

There aught to be a name .. I think that "vendor lock-in" comes close to describing the situation. However, it does not describe the way the dependence changes the behaviour of the people locked in. I think that "addiction" fits in this case.

That's not lock-in, it's just a dependency.

It would be lock-in if the vendor made it unreasonably difficult to remove the dependency.

Re: The full-time job of keeping up with Kubernetes

#14
This is a problem I faced using ansible, webpack + js modules, and more. it's a moving ground and you always need to keep up to date with the latest changes often which are breaking.

I tend to design my systems so that they work even if I haven't touched a line in a year but when using such tools it's always a pain.

I wish things were as stable as a bourne shell and unix environment in general. Not that they achieve the same but I just miss the stability I get from raw unix tools.

Re: The full-time job of keeping up with Kubernetes

#15
post #2

There aught to be a name to the tendency that as tools get better and better, the more your time goes from having your mind in technical-space to social and news-space. It's like the authority to create goes from the individual first-principles (by necessity) maker, to the control over development being in the hands of an external group, and then all your time is spent keeping up with what they're doing. A similar th…

The short story version of this was written by Arthur C Clarke in 1951, "Superiority" http://www.mayofamily.com/RLM/txt_Clarke_Superiority.html

Re: The full-time job of keeping up with Kubernetes

#16
post #2

There aught to be a name to the tendency that as tools get better and better, the more your time goes from having your mind in technical-space to social and news-space. It's like the authority to create goes from the individual first-principles (by necessity) maker, to the control over development being in the hands of an external group, and then all your time is spent keeping up with what they're doing. A similar th…

I was just thinking the other day about "finished software". These days, those Unix philosophy tools of doing one thing well and leaving small solved problems alone are becoming seemingly fewer and fewer.

Re: The full-time job of keeping up with Kubernetes

#17
post #2

There aught to be a name to the tendency that as tools get better and better, the more your time goes from having your mind in technical-space to social and news-space. It's like the authority to create goes from the individual first-principles (by necessity) maker, to the control over development being in the hands of an external group, and then all your time is spent keeping up with what they're doing. A similar th…

Joel Spolsky talks about this (as a somewhat adversarial tactic, even if it's not purposely so) in "Fire and Motion"[1]

"Watch out when your competition fires at you. Do they just want to force you to keep busy reacting to their volleys, so you can’t move forward?

Think of the history of data access strategies to come out of Microsoft. ODBC, RDO, DAO, ADO, OLEDB, now ADO.NET – All New! Are these technological imperatives? The result of an incompetent design group that needs to reinvent data access every goddamn year? (That’s probably it, actually.) But the end result is just cover fire. The competition has no choice but to spend all their time porting and keeping up, time that they can’t spend writing new features. Look closely at the software landscape. The companies that do well are the ones who rely least on big companies and don’t have to spend all their cycles catching up and reimplementing and fixing bugs that crop up only on Windows XP. The companies who stumble are the ones who spend too much time reading tea leaves to figure out the future direction of Microsoft. People get worried about .NET and decide to rewrite their whole architecture for .NET because they think they have to. Microsoft is shooting at you, and it’s just cover fire so that they can move forward and you can’t, because this is how the game is played, Bubby. Are you going to support Hailstorm? SOAP? RDF? Are you supporting it because your customers need it, or because someone is firing at you and you feel like you have to respond? The sales teams of the big companies understand cover fire. They go into their customers and say, “OK, you don’t have to buy from us. Buy from the best vendor. But make sure that you get a product that supports (XML / SOAP / CDE / J2EE) because otherwise you’ll be Locked In The Trunk.” Then when the little companies try to sell into that account, all they hear is obedient CTOs parrotting “Do you have J2EE?” And they have to waste all their time building in J2EE even if it doesn’t really make any sales, and gives them no opportunity to distinguish themselves. It’s a checkbox feature — you do it because you need the checkbox saying you have it, but nobody will use it or needs it. And it’s cover fire.

[1] https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2002/01/06/fire-and-motion/

Re: The full-time job of keeping up with Kubernetes

#18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a lot of this is that once a tool reaches a certain level of size and complexity, it’s impossible to know all the technical details unless you’re actually a developer on the project (and after another threshold, not even then). So at that point you have to use news and social information to find out what’s going on, and just trust that people know what they’re doing. It can be frustrating, but it’s also unavo…

> It can be frustrating, but it’s also unavoidable. Why unavoidable? It's not that one is forced to use some tech... Even though the hyped crowd chants the names so loudly. A lot of things that complex technology offers are not really needed (not to mention one has to constantly fight with that new complex technology when it doesn't yet do something). And complex tech can be frequently replaced with a small set of ti…

(I haven't read the rest of your post, but I think I can still answer this little snippet...)

> Why unavoidable? It's not that one is forced to use some tech... Even though the hyped crowd chants the names so loudly.

Peer pressure. Consultant-hiring-pressure, for example: Are you full-stack? "Full stack", now there's a phrase...

(EDIT: I honestly do feel that it's a sort of an attack by the sheer meta on the hiring side of the equation on the meta of the supply side of the equation. I don't imagine recruiters are doing much of this consciously, but it's definitely happening more and more...)

Re: The full-time job of keeping up with Kubernetes

#19
post #2

There aught to be a name to the tendency that as tools get better and better, the more your time goes from having your mind in technical-space to social and news-space. It's like the authority to create goes from the individual first-principles (by necessity) maker, to the control over development being in the hands of an external group, and then all your time is spent keeping up with what they're doing. A similar th…

A description of -- not a name for -- is corporate control of an open source project. Trying to keep up with Angular or Kubernetes or Go is not a problem at the Google from whence they come because the technologies are primarily used by and hence primarily designed for use by teams. Not individual developers.

A team's brain can schedule a time where part of it is training or studying while the rest of it is making progress on the task at hand. A team's brain can resolve ambiguity and complexity more easily because it has multiple human brains and those brains have different strengths and experiences.

A single developer can't duplicate a brain. A small team of developers can't replicate the larger multi-team brain of a Google org-chart. Google org-charts are the context for which its tools are designed. The same is true of other corporate open source technology bundles like React and AWS.

People kick themselves for not grokking technologies like Kuberentes without realizing that it wasn't really designed for their use case, isn't documented to be easy to pick up, and isn't managed with the cognitive load of individuals in mind. The time scales around which these technologies are designed are FTE-months or years.

If a two pizza team can get up to speed in a month, it means an individual will probably take about a year. Given equal cognitive efficiency.

Re: The full-time job of keeping up with Kubernetes

#20
post #2

There aught to be a name to the tendency that as tools get better and better, the more your time goes from having your mind in technical-space to social and news-space. It's like the authority to create goes from the individual first-principles (by necessity) maker, to the control over development being in the hands of an external group, and then all your time is spent keeping up with what they're doing. A similar th…

I was just thinking the other day about "finished software". These days, those Unix philosophy tools of doing one thing well and leaving small solved problems alone are becoming seemingly fewer and fewer.

Indeed. The cathedrals won.

I would posit(x !) that it's because it is easier to form a community and 'cost of entrance' around a megalith like Kubernetes, than around individual tools that do 1 or a few very similar things well.

Then again, I would say it's time to start looking away from "handling text streams", to something that can handle data streams of various formats, including transcoders that can convert from one type to another.

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