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Experiments reveal faculty preference for women on STEM tenure track (2014)

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Re: Experiments reveal faculty preference for women on STEM tenure track (2014)

#11
post #5

So basically men and women prefer women to gain tenure in STEM fields as shown in this graph[0]? Can we now close the "no women in stem" meme finally? [0] - http://www.pnas.org/content/112/17/5360/F1.expansion.html

I don't think so. I think the everyday experience for female academics still lags behind that of male academics. If you're an undergrad in an unfamiliar hard class it can be tricky to approach a male fellow student without risking misinterpretation of romantic interest; if you're applying to grad school, letter writers are conditioned to talk about women in different ways ("diligent", not "brilliant", maybe); if you'…

People like you are given gold and they will whine it's too heavy.

The graph clearly shows that women are prefered in STEM, what more proof do you need?

Re: Experiments reveal faculty preference for women on STEM tenure track (2014)

#12

So basically men and women prefer women to gain tenure in STEM fields as shown in this graph[0]? Can we now close the "no women in stem" meme finally? [0] - http://www.pnas.org/content/112/17/5360/F1.expansion.html

There are evidently few women in STEM and this data doesn't contradict that. It's a consequence that hiring practices should favour women who are equally qualified on paper, because they have likely overcome more barriers in practice and, all other things being equal, are better hires.

> should favour women

This is sexism right here.

Re: Experiments reveal faculty preference for women on STEM tenure track (2014)

#13
Perhaps the lack of women in STEM is a first world phenomenon. In my third world undergraduate CS class, 10 years ago, there were 40 women and 20 men. I would say it even appeared to me that more women were in college than men.The few courses were I found less women than men were in Mechanical Engineering departments.

Re: Experiments reveal faculty preference for women on STEM tenure track (2014)

#14

Very interesting. I presume this isn't a blind test though, so could there be a "ooo they're testing for sexism, better pick the women!" factor? Or did they account for that somehow? Edit: Skimmed it and they did go to significant lengths to disguise their hypothesis. Details on page 2 of the PDF.

Without this being a double-blind experiment, than it is highly questionable. People over-compensate for bias if you tell them you're testing their bias. The fact that the abstract makes no mention of this is highly suspect.

Re: Experiments reveal faculty preference for women on STEM tenure track (2014)

#15
post #5

So basically men and women prefer women to gain tenure in STEM fields as shown in this graph[0]? Can we now close the "no women in stem" meme finally? [0] - http://www.pnas.org/content/112/17/5360/F1.expansion.html

I don't think so. I think the everyday experience for female academics still lags behind that of male academics. If you're an undergrad in an unfamiliar hard class it can be tricky to approach a male fellow student without risking misinterpretation of romantic interest; if you're applying to grad school, letter writers are conditioned to talk about women in different ways ("diligent", not "brilliant", maybe); if you'…

>romantic interest

Heh, I don't know about other STEM fields but I remember a lady attending a computer science freshman social event once. There were very few women there as the majority of women in CS are in HTI. After a while she said to my friend, "Why is everyone such a nerd."

She left the field, men were at fault.

Re: Experiments reveal faculty preference for women on STEM tenure track (2014)

#16

So basically men and women prefer women to gain tenure in STEM fields as shown in this graph[0]? Can we now close the "no women in stem" meme finally? [0] - http://www.pnas.org/content/112/17/5360/F1.expansion.html

There are evidently few women in STEM and this data doesn't contradict that. It's a consequence that hiring practices should favour women who are equally qualified on paper, because they have likely overcome more barriers in practice and, all other things being equal, are better hires.

> It's a consequence that hiring practices should favour women who are equally qualified on paper, because they have likely overcome more barriers in practice and, all other things being equal, are better hires.

I want to argue against this from a purely utilitarian standpoint, where we care about getting better hire, and don't care about any ethical implications. I think your logic is just bad math.

You're right, and women have more barriers to entry into STEM. And if some barriers are already removed (as this study suggest), I can assume that others still exist. Let's make the numbers simpler, and assume that these barriers make it 2 times harder for a given woman to get into some experience level (I don't know real numbers anyway, and they don't matter).

However, when we observe the effect of these barriers, we simply see that there are 2 times more men on that level than women. That's the whole effect. Statistically, if a woman had 2 times less chance of getting through, and there are already 2 times less women than men, then we already see the full effect of this barrier: there's no evidence that there should be some hidden variable to explain this barrier.

However, if we would know that women's barrier makes it 10 times as harder, and still, there are only 2 times as many men as women, then we would need some other data to explain this; namely, that these women are actually 5 times as good as the men.

But we don't know that. The whole knowledge about these barriers that we have comes from the outcome: we see that there are 2 times as many men as women, and that's how we assume (correctly, I think) that there is a barrier. But if we start from this outcome data, we can't through some magic come back to it and add a hidden variable - it's just a logic loop, and a strange one: we see data, make conclusions from observations, and from these conclusions change our observation of this very data to see it as incomplete, without help of any data points outside this original observation. How could such logic be correct?

Re: Experiments reveal faculty preference for women on STEM tenure track (2014)

#17
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think so. I think the everyday experience for female academics still lags behind that of male academics. If you're an undergrad in an unfamiliar hard class it can be tricky to approach a male fellow student without risking misinterpretation of romantic interest; if you're applying to grad school, letter writers are conditioned to talk about women in different ways ("diligent", not "brilliant", maybe); if you'…

None of that stuff is because of bias though. That is just the result of being in a field dominated by the other gender.

Sentence 1:

> None of that stuff is because of bias though.

Sentence 2:

> That is just the result of being in a field dominated by the other gender.

Re: Experiments reveal faculty preference for women on STEM tenure track (2014)

#18
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think so. I think the everyday experience for female academics still lags behind that of male academics. If you're an undergrad in an unfamiliar hard class it can be tricky to approach a male fellow student without risking misinterpretation of romantic interest; if you're applying to grad school, letter writers are conditioned to talk about women in different ways ("diligent", not "brilliant", maybe); if you'…

Have you ever considered things that men have to deal with and are not being able to put them in terms of 'being male in the X industry/community/field"? This is not to minimize anything a woman has to go through, but let's, at least, not compare as if it's on equal terms. If we're able to talk about women issues at all, isn't that because women and men are different? Why compare it so easily and uni-dimensionally? B…

A man worries a woman won’t like him. A woman worries a man will kill her.

Re: Experiments reveal faculty preference for women on STEM tenure track (2014)

#19
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think so. I think the everyday experience for female academics still lags behind that of male academics. If you're an undergrad in an unfamiliar hard class it can be tricky to approach a male fellow student without risking misinterpretation of romantic interest; if you're applying to grad school, letter writers are conditioned to talk about women in different ways ("diligent", not "brilliant", maybe); if you'…

People like you are given gold and they will whine it's too heavy. The graph clearly shows that women are prefered in STEM, what more proof do you need?

Imagine that you and your friend go to work for company X. You are put in a windowless room with an uncomfortable chair where every half hour a co-worker comes by to ask a brief technical question. Your friend gets a quiet, sunny office and is only interrupted by the meetings he organizes himself. However, management assures you that in light of your less amenable office situation, you will receive an extra 10 points out of 100 on your annual performance review, and your friend will not.

Would you conclude that you are truly "preferred"? Would you rather be in your friend's place? Would you stick around this company at all, even if the work appeals to you?

This is what I mean -- that having an advantage at one step in the process does not necessarily compensate for a negative experience at other steps in the process.

Re: Experiments reveal faculty preference for women on STEM tenure track (2014)

#20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever considered things that men have to deal with and are not being able to put them in terms of 'being male in the X industry/community/field"? This is not to minimize anything a woman has to go through, but let's, at least, not compare as if it's on equal terms. If we're able to talk about women issues at all, isn't that because women and men are different? Why compare it so easily and uni-dimensionally? B…

A man worries a woman won’t like him. A woman worries a man will kill her.

The chances of that happening with your typical Dilbertian white male software engineer are vanishingly small.
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