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Editorial: Waiter, there's a Nazi theme in my Android Market

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Re: Editorial: Waiter, there's a Nazi theme in my Android Market

#11

Post by rbanffy »

ugh wrote: post #7
rbanffy wrote: post #2

You can choose between censorship and freedom of speech. You can't have it both ways. Offensive speech is the small price you pay for your freedom. Enjoy it. And, BTW, I live in a country where I am not given the luxury of being able to express some impopular points of view without risking being arrested.

What’s Google’s decision whether to sell crap like this got to do with freedom of speech? It’s not that hard: The police arresting the asshole developers of those themes? That’s an attack on freedom of speech [+]. Google not allowing them to sell their stuff through the Android Market? Not so much. (I very much expect that Google will remove the themes. It’s no big deal.) I think it’s ludicrous to even bring up freed…

> What’s Google’s decision whether to sell crap like this got to do with freedom of speech?

Everything.

I, personally, find it disturbing. But if it does not breach the ToS of the Android market, Google has no right to remove the materials. More than that: by removing it from the market, Google would be dictating the terms for censorship in the marketplace, making it difficult for neonazis to find material that appeals to them.

And this is a delicate issue: if you segregate against those with unpopular points of view (the neonazis, religious nuts (aren't them all), proto-terrorists, extreme right-wingers) you drive them underground. If their ideas can no longer be debated in the open, they will be debated - and reinforced - in communities with like-minded people.

I don't care about neonazis and other miscellaneous idiots, but I care about a functioning society I am part of. There is not that much difference between segregating on beliefs and segregating on skin color.

Re: Editorial: Waiter, there's a Nazi theme in my Android Market

#12

Post by rbanffy »

c1sc0 wrote: post #3
rbanffy wrote: post #2

You can choose between censorship and freedom of speech. You can't have it both ways. Offensive speech is the small price you pay for your freedom. Enjoy it. And, BTW, I live in a country where I am not given the luxury of being able to express some impopular points of view without risking being arrested.

Where are you from? As far as I know this particular theme would probably be illegal in Germany.

> Where are you from?

Brazil.

Officially, we have free speech, as stated in the constitution, but the same constitution forbids anonymity (I use to joke I have free speech as long as I have a better lawyer that the folks offended by my free speech). Also, there are laws explicitly forbidding racist and other kinds of hate-speech.

I find this foolish - unpopular ideas will be nurtured, if not in the open, where they can be attacked, far more dangerously, in closed self-reinforcing communities.

But, foolish or not, it's the law here.

Re: Editorial: Waiter, there's a Nazi theme in my Android Market

#13

Post by rbanffy »

jon_hendry wrote: post #10
cr0atian wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes it would be illegal in Germany, but here in the US we do have freedom of speech. From flag burning, to KKK rallys and in this case Nazi insignia are all examples of free speech, and protected by the Constitution. Google can censor this but that would also be sacrificing free speech. I think its a disgusting theme but I don't think it should be censored, maybe they should get their keywords sorted so it doesn't sh…

"Yes it would be illegal in Germany, but here in the US we do have freedom of speech. From flag burning, to KKK rallys and in this case Nazi insignia are all examples of free speech, and protected by the Constitution." The 1st amendment is about Congress, not about what retailers allow into their stores for sale.

> The 1st amendment is about Congress,

Which only means Google cannot be forced by law to remove the offensive material.

Re: Editorial: Waiter, there's a Nazi theme in my Android Market

#14

Post by njharman »

"turns up skins which are disgustingly, hatefully pro-Nazism and pro-Hitler. That's a problem, no matter how you look at this."

"hard look at what censorship really means, and what kind of role it can (and clearly should) play in the new frontier of app marketplaces"

That's a seriously fucked up view on censorship right there. I hope it's just a troll and author really doesn't believe that censorship is ok, and censoring what they don't like is fine and dandy.

Also maybe the reason author thinks "Jewish" and "Hitler" are unrelated search terms is because the only history they have read had all the "hate filled" parts censored.

Re: Editorial: Waiter, there's a Nazi theme in my Android Market

#15

Post by ulysses »

Think of it this way: app stores are kind of like privately owned bookstores. The owner of the bookstore doesn't have to carry the art book of nudes or the pro-Nazi thesis.

I would be very unhappy with a general bookstore openly refusing to carry a book solely because of its political content.

Re: Editorial: Waiter, there's a Nazi theme in my Android Market

#16

Post by eru »

rbanffy wrote: post #13
jon_hendry wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Yes it would be illegal in Germany, but here in the US we do have freedom of speech. From flag burning, to KKK rallys and in this case Nazi insignia are all examples of free speech, and protected by the Constitution." The 1st amendment is about Congress, not about what retailers allow into their stores for sale.

> The 1st amendment is about Congress, Which only means Google cannot be forced by law to remove the offensive material.

And they can probably not be forced to keep it, either.

Re: Editorial: Waiter, there's a Nazi theme in my Android Market

#17

Post by krschultz »

rbanffy wrote: post #11
ugh wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s Google’s decision whether to sell crap like this got to do with freedom of speech? It’s not that hard: The police arresting the asshole developers of those themes? That’s an attack on freedom of speech [+]. Google not allowing them to sell their stuff through the Android Market? Not so much. (I very much expect that Google will remove the themes. It’s no big deal.) I think it’s ludicrous to even bring up freed…

> What’s Google’s decision whether to sell crap like this got to do with freedom of speech? Everything. I, personally, find it disturbing. But if it does not breach the ToS of the Android market, Google has no right to remove the materials. More than that: by removing it from the market, Google would be dictating the terms for censorship in the marketplace, making it difficult for neonazis to find material that appea…

Actually, there is no connection between Google's decision and freedom of speech.

First off I'm not attacking you since you mentioned that you are not from the US, and the majority of people in the US don't understand this either.

Freedom of speech is not the right to be able to say anything you want anytime, anywhere, anyhow.

Freedom of speech is the right to say anything you want without government interference.

Google is not the government. They own the app store, it is their property. If they want to limit what people say, that is not a freedom of speech issue. That is a property rights issue. If I want to go stand on the lawn at Google HQ and have a KKK rally, they have no obligation to allow me to do that. Same goes for the app store.

Google has every right to remove the material. Property rights are the foundation of this country, probably more so than freedom of speech.

As for the difference between beliefs and skin color, actually there is a huge difference. It is in court decisions that there is a difference between things you are born with (skin color) and things you choose (beliefs).

Re: Editorial: Waiter, there's a Nazi theme in my Android Market

#18

Post by petercooper »

cr0atian wrote: post #5
c1sc0 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where are you from? As far as I know this particular theme would probably be illegal in Germany.

Yes it would be illegal in Germany, but here in the US we do have freedom of speech. From flag burning, to KKK rallys and in this case Nazi insignia are all examples of free speech, and protected by the Constitution. Google can censor this but that would also be sacrificing free speech. I think its a disgusting theme but I don't think it should be censored, maybe they should get their keywords sorted so it doesn't sh…

here in the US we do have freedom of speech. From flag burning, to KKK rallys and in this case Nazi insignia are all examples of free speech, and protected by the Constitution.

To me, Nazi insignia seems like imagery rather than "speech." If you agree it's imagery, do you think that any imagery should be OK to own and distribute, no matter how offensive it is (as with speech)?

Re: Editorial: Waiter, there's a Nazi theme in my Android Market

#19

Post by glhaynes »

ulysses wrote: post #15

Think of it this way: app stores are kind of like privately owned bookstores. The owner of the bookstore doesn't have to carry the art book of nudes or the pro-Nazi thesis. I would be very unhappy with a general bookstore openly refusing to carry a book solely because of its political content.

Bookstores don't carry every book ever made; they're "curated". They have no obligation to carry every book you might want... if your tastes are significantly outside of the mainstream, you're going to sometimes have to order from a specialty seller or directly from the author/publisher.

Re: Editorial: Waiter, there's a Nazi theme in my Android Market

#20

Post by krschultz »

cr0atian wrote: post #5
c1sc0 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where are you from? As far as I know this particular theme would probably be illegal in Germany.

Yes it would be illegal in Germany, but here in the US we do have freedom of speech. From flag burning, to KKK rallys and in this case Nazi insignia are all examples of free speech, and protected by the Constitution. Google can censor this but that would also be sacrificing free speech. I think its a disgusting theme but I don't think it should be censored, maybe they should get their keywords sorted so it doesn't sh…

And how does freedom of speech apply here?

This is a property rights issue. The existance of these applications damages Google's ability to sell Android phones (see Steve Job's mocking of porn in the Android store as a good example). Google has no obligation to support your speech if it damages their property. They have no obligation to support your speech (i.e. pay to progate it, which clearly they are doing here by paying for the servers).

Basically you are saying you have the "right" to force Google into paying to support your hate speech. Bullshit. That has nothing to do with freedom of speech.

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