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Deus Vult – Social Networks in Crusader Kings 2

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Re: Deus Vult – Social Networks in Crusader Kings 2

#11
post #5
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Deus Vult is an expansion to the original Crusader Kings and predates the stupid meme by well over a decade. Any relation is one foisted upon later on.

The same can be said about the swastika :^)

Not to ignore the point being illustrated, nor the tongue-in-cheek nature of it, but a symbol on the flag of Nazi Germany and a Latin phrase from the middle ages that some undesirables on the internet use don't really seem comparable in scale, and scale is the important thing here.

MAGA, for instance, was memetic, so if you use/repurpose it, there's a relatively unambiguous origin. Deus Vult in this context, not so much; it lacks the spread and saturation necessary. If the Swastika was only present on a small subset of Nazi paraphernalia, it wouldn't be nearly as taboo - it's till so toxic today because it was on everything and so readily associated.

So I don't really think that argument applies here.

Re: Deus Vult – Social Networks in Crusader Kings 2

#12
post #2

This may be a post about a game related to medieval political intrigue, but I am creeped-the-fuck-out by the relation to modern r/TheDonald Deus Vult-ness.

The world doesn't revolve around the moral whims of the American middle class. Deus Vult is a thematic headline for a historical wargame. People shouldn't stop using it because of meme culture. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deus_vult 4chan loves to prey on these concerns by hijacking harmless symbols e.g. green frogs, OK sign, rainbow flags.

Re: Deus Vult – Social Networks in Crusader Kings 2

#13
post #5
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Deus Vult is an expansion to the original Crusader Kings and predates the stupid meme by well over a decade. Any relation is one foisted upon later on.

The same can be said about the swastika :^)

I really don't like just letting scumbags claim every cultural item and symbol they want. The swastika is clearly lost to us, give the breadth and enormity of its use, but if we let them poison everything they ever touch we'll end up poorer for it.

Re: Deus Vult – Social Networks in Crusader Kings 2

#14
post #3
post #2

This may be a post about a game related to medieval political intrigue, but I am creeped-the-fuck-out by the relation to modern r/TheDonald Deus Vult-ness.

Deus Vult is an expansion to the original Crusader Kings and predates the stupid meme by well over a decade. Any relation is one foisted upon later on.

Deus Vult ("god wills it") is also the expression in Latin used during the actual crusades, the historical event that predates the game by over 900 years.

The name of the game is based on that expression.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deus_vult

Some rather informal historical explanation can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIs5B2U7US0

Re: Deus Vult – Social Networks in Crusader Kings 2

#15
post #11
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same can be said about the swastika :^)

Not to ignore the point being illustrated, nor the tongue-in-cheek nature of it, but a symbol on the flag of Nazi Germany and a Latin phrase from the middle ages that some undesirables on the internet use don't really seem comparable in scale, and scale is the important thing here. MAGA, for instance, was memetic, so if you use/repurpose it, there's a relatively unambiguous origin. Deus Vult in this context, not so m…

I get your point - if the swastika is used in a western country, its almost certainly a Neo-Nazi using it, not a middle-aged Indian woman, even though millions of Indians use the swastika in a religious context every day. However, by the same token, if someone says Deus Vult, its statistically far more likely to be a Neo-Nazi/far right nut rather than a fan of Crusader Kings.

Re: Deus Vult – Social Networks in Crusader Kings 2

#16
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Deus Vult is an expansion to the original Crusader Kings and predates the stupid meme by well over a decade. Any relation is one foisted upon later on.

Deus Vult ("god wills it") is also the expression in Latin used during the actual crusades, the historical event that predates the game by over 900 years. The name of the game is based on that expression. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deus_vult Some rather informal historical explanation can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIs5B2U7US0

A quick note on exactly what God willed, according to the Crusaders. A scene from the Siege of Antioch in 1098

> The calm night air was shattered as the Franks screamed out their battle cry "God wills it! God wills it!" With resistance crumbling, the Crusaders poured into Antioch. Amid the gloom of the approaching dawn the chaotic slaughter began. One Latin contemporary noted that 'they were sparing no Muslim on the grounds on the age or sex, the ground was covered with blood and corpses and some of these were Christians Greeks, Syrians and Armenians...'. Afterwards one Crusader described how 'all the streets of the city on every side were full of corpses, so that no one could endure to be there because of the stench, nor could anyone walk along the narrow paths of the city, except over the corpses of the dead'.

And this was just the capture of Antioch. The scenes at the capture of Jerusalem were far worse, with the Crusaders indulging in butchery that's nauseating to read about. In contrast, when Sultan Saladin recaptured Jerusalem 90 years later, it was done peacefully.

When we see people today brandishing swastikas, we know exactly what kind of people they are and what they aspire to be, based on our knowledge of the crimes of the Nazis. Similarly, when you see a far right nut arguing against Islam and using this catchphrase, you know what kind of cloth they're cut from.

Source

- The Crusades: The Authoritative History of the War for the Holy Land by Thomas Asbridge

Re: Deus Vult – Social Networks in Crusader Kings 2

#17
post #10
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They released a Rome game on their older engine that's now quite dated. It was pretty fun and I'd recommend it. Because they're so moddable, a total conversion would be possible. I know the mechanics are similar but the game of thrones mod is breathtaking (I recommend this too)! A good place to start would be the time when Rome was merely a small kingdom and take it from there. Lots of Mediterranean based conflict wi…

Yeah, I recall the old one (though TBH I thought it was not particularly great). I think it'd be fun to have a modern spin on it for sure, I just don't know how you put together the actual game and make it work. I tried to spec one out not that long ago and getting bogged down by trying to adequately represent, if not everything, then a reasonable subset thereof. The winnowing down of models of government and religio…

No, it wasn't EU4 / CK2 / Stellaris grade. I just love the Roman period and RTW doesn't cut it (Caesar III satisfies city management in a way).

I guess I can't argue if you've sat down and tried to model it - the culling of establishment structures makes sense now.

Given me inspiration to take a stab, if only to come to your conclusion. A decent, historical early Rome grand strategy game is too much to let go of.

Hopefully an impetus to put some code down on a game I want to play.

Re: Deus Vult – Social Networks in Crusader Kings 2

#18
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Deus Vult ("god wills it") is also the expression in Latin used during the actual crusades, the historical event that predates the game by over 900 years. The name of the game is based on that expression. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deus_vult Some rather informal historical explanation can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIs5B2U7US0

A quick note on exactly what God willed, according to the Crusaders. A scene from the Siege of Antioch in 1098 > The calm night air was shattered as the Franks screamed out their battle cry "God wills it! God wills it!" With resistance crumbling, the Crusaders poured into Antioch. Amid the gloom of the approaching dawn the chaotic slaughter began. One Latin contemporary noted that 'they were sparing no Muslim on the…

5 seconds of Googling reveals:

>On July 4, 1187, the Muslim forces of Saladin (Salah al-Din) decisively defeated the crusader army south of the Horns of Hattin in Palestine, capturing Guy, king of Jerusalem; Reginald of Châtillon, Saladin’s enemy whom he personally killed; over two hundred Knights Hospitaller and Templar Knightly Orders whom he ordered to be killed; and many crusaders whom he ransomed. The remaining captured Christians were sold on the local slave markets. [1]

Such a friendly guy, that Saladin!

Your attempt to draw some great moral distinction between evil Christian and good Muslims is massively confused and, given its underlying intent to delegitimize certain religious/ethnic groups today, actually nauseating.

The reality is that pretty much everyone involved in the Muslim conquests, the Crusades, the Muslim re-conquests, and all conflicts of that era were absolutely brutal. Mohammed himself ordered and carried out countless torture sessions, battles, and massacres, of soldiers and civilians. So as did the Romans and the Franks and everyone else.

If they were ever merciful, on any occasion, it was not for moral reasons, but strategic/political ones.

The ancient world is brutal. Stop trying to manipulate stories from it to stir up hate towards peoples' identities today. We have enough things to fight about already.

[1] http://www.history.com/topics/saladin

Re: Deus Vult – Social Networks in Crusader Kings 2

#19
post #18
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A quick note on exactly what God willed, according to the Crusaders. A scene from the Siege of Antioch in 1098 > The calm night air was shattered as the Franks screamed out their battle cry "God wills it! God wills it!" With resistance crumbling, the Crusaders poured into Antioch. Amid the gloom of the approaching dawn the chaotic slaughter began. One Latin contemporary noted that 'they were sparing no Muslim on the…

5 seconds of Googling reveals: >On July 4, 1187, the Muslim forces of Saladin (Salah al-Din) decisively defeated the crusader army south of the Horns of Hattin in Palestine, capturing Guy, king of Jerusalem; Reginald of Châtillon, Saladin’s enemy whom he personally killed; over two hundred Knights Hospitaller and Templar Knightly Orders whom he ordered to be killed; and many crusaders whom he ransomed. The remaining…

I'm glad you did your 5 seconds of googling - but the distinction I was drawing was the difference in treatment meted out to combatants and non-combatants. Saladin sold soldiers into slavery. He spared civilians. The Crusaders made no such distinction. Yes, slavery sucked but between mass murder and selling into slavery, the latter was the lesser of the two evils in the 12th century. The alternative - allowing enemy combatants to go free was ruinous, you would face them in battle again within a few years.

I request that you judge Saladin by the standards of his time, just as I judge the First Crusaders by the standards of their time. At a time when it was common to demonize your enemy for anything they did, Latin sources had an extremely high opinion of Saladin. Archbishop William of Tyre, the primary source for this period, spoke of him in glowing terms, especially of the mercy shown during the siege of Jerusalem.

I completely agree that the Crusades were filled with atrocities committed by every single person involved, regardless of religion. I was merely pointing out that even by the standards of the 12th century, those who used the battle cry "Deus Vult" during the sieges of Antioch and Jersalem were far worse than their contemporaries. When people today echo this battle cry, it is exactly this kind of behaviour that they are implicitly endorsing.

Re: Deus Vult – Social Networks in Crusader Kings 2

#20
post #2

This may be a post about a game related to medieval political intrigue, but I am creeped-the-fuck-out by the relation to modern r/TheDonald Deus Vult-ness.

Do you similarly feel creeped-the-fuck-out when hearing the Muslim call to prayer from a mosque, just because the first line "Allahu akbar" has a relation to the catchphrase uttered by radical Islamists? Gut reactions are completely normal but they should be the beginning of understanding and conversation rather than being a rhetorical stop sign.

Strategy games always have a bit of player indulgence in role-playing. Part of the fun is putting yourself into the role and play-acting -- and having some ironic amusement at how out-of-place it sounds. There's even an entire subreddit about the crazy things people say when playing CK2 ( https://www.reddit.com/r/ShitCrusaderKingsSay/ ). Example: https://i.imgur.com/qI4s0hJ.jpg

It's a shame that modern commentary on video games tends to point out a link between something in a game and something unsavory or "problematic" and think that's the end of the discussion. I thought we had left behind that sort of thing with Jack Thompson.

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