Elite colleges are making it easy for conservatives to dislike them • Hacker News Board

Re: Elite colleges are making it easy for conservatives to dislike them

#11

Post by stupidcar » Thu, Nov 30, 2017, 5:01 PM UTC

nilkn wrote: post #7

lordCarbonFiber wrote: post #2

When "conservative speakers" has expanded to include literal white supremacists it's somehow hard to empathize with the plight of the conservative mindshare among the educated. The first amendment gives citizens the right to hold ideas free of government prosecution; it does not include any mandate for the population to buy into any of those ideas. Trying to sell a philosophy of "fuck you got mine" to young people mi…

I don't think this is really about free speech in the sense of the First Amendment. Universities are supposed to be about the pursuit of knowledge, and it's pretty unlikely that conservatives are wrong about everything and liberals are right about everything. Moreover, I don't think any reasonable person would say that any historical political party has ever been correct on every issue. So again it's quite unlikely t…

How are white supremacists a "fringe", when you have a US President who openly supports and defends them? Who spreads their propaganda to his 40 million Twitter followers?

You can argue about to what extent his views are shared within the wider conservative movement, but when the conservative movement's democratically chosen leader supports an ideology like this, it is clearly not a "fringe".

Re: Elite colleges are making it easy for conservatives to dislike them

#12

Post by confuseddesi » Thu, Nov 30, 2017, 5:02 PM UTC

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #3

As the American right-wing moves further right and further way from participating in consensus reality, it should be no surprise they are increasingly less welcome in spaces dedicated to the pursuit of knowledge. If you reject not only the politics of your opponents, but the value of fact itself, why should they listen to or accommodate you? https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/11/2/16588964/a...

Perhaps it is the American right-wing moving further right, but I am more inclined to believe the American left is moving farther left: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/01/why-ame...

Take for example this speech by Bill Clinton in 1995: https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4654597/bill-clinton-illegal-...: "That's why our administration has moved aggressively to secure our borders more by hiring a record number of new border guards, by deporting twice as many criminal aliens as ever before, by cracking down on illegal hiring, by barring welfare benefits to illegal aliens."

To think that this was a speech by a Democrat president about 20 years ago is unfathomable to the left today.

Re: Elite colleges are making it easy for conservatives to dislike them

#13

Post by thecatwentup » Thu, Nov 30, 2017, 5:03 PM UTC

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #3

As the American right-wing moves further right and further way from participating in consensus reality, it should be no surprise they are increasingly less welcome in spaces dedicated to the pursuit of knowledge. If you reject not only the politics of your opponents, but the value of fact itself, why should they listen to or accommodate you? https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/11/2/16588964/a...

What's interesting is that this is the exact attitude that the article is critical of. One persons perceived closed mindedness should not preclude them from sharing and refining their ideas in an academic setting, and being accepted as a member of the academic society.

Re: Elite colleges are making it easy for conservatives to dislike them

#14

Post by vannevar » Thu, Nov 30, 2017, 5:05 PM UTC

confuseddesi wrote: post #12

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #3

As the American right-wing moves further right and further way from participating in consensus reality, it should be no surprise they are increasingly less welcome in spaces dedicated to the pursuit of knowledge. If you reject not only the politics of your opponents, but the value of fact itself, why should they listen to or accommodate you? https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/11/2/16588964/a...

Perhaps it is the American right-wing moving further right, but I am more inclined to believe the American left is moving farther left: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/01/why-ame... Take for example this speech by Bill Clinton in 1995: https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4654597/bill-clinton-illegal-... : "That's why our administration has moved aggressively to secure our borders more by hiring a record…

Not all that unfathomable, Obama deported record numbers of criminal illegals.

Re: Elite colleges are making it easy for conservatives to dislike them

#15

Post by lordCarbonFiber » Thu, Nov 30, 2017, 5:07 PM UTC

nilkn wrote: post #7

lordCarbonFiber wrote: post #2

When "conservative speakers" has expanded to include literal white supremacists it's somehow hard to empathize with the plight of the conservative mindshare among the educated. The first amendment gives citizens the right to hold ideas free of government prosecution; it does not include any mandate for the population to buy into any of those ideas. Trying to sell a philosophy of "fuck you got mine" to young people mi…

I don't think this is really about free speech in the sense of the First Amendment. Universities are supposed to be about the pursuit of knowledge, and it's pretty unlikely that conservatives are wrong about everything and liberals are right about everything. Moreover, I don't think any reasonable person would say that any historical political party has ever been correct on every issue. So again it's quite unlikely t…

The "interesting, well-spoken, articulate" folks have no issue speaking at college campuses. Playing the "good people on many sides" card ignores who these people are that are being forced off of college campuses. Alan Greenspan could show up to give a talk and be well received; Richard Spencer is going to spark riots (for good reason).

Most issues have a gradient or contextual answers so I don't buy the argument that just because someone maybe wrong implying their opponents are necessarily correct.

The "pursuit of knowledge" predisposes that not all ideas are created equal.

That "fringe, extreme" element of the right holds the presidency of the United States; pretending they don't exist, or don't hold power is ridiculous in 2017.

Re: Elite colleges are making it easy for conservatives to dislike them

#16

Post by Helloworldboy » Thu, Nov 30, 2017, 5:08 PM UTC

PatientTrades wrote: post #4

> to tax large university endowments and make other tax and spending changes that might adversely affect universities Why shouldn't major universities pay their fair share to help society? Most of these elite universities literally pocket billions of dollars at the end of the fiscal year. Major universities have essentially evolved into corporations.

Not sure why you're being downvoted, this is absolutely the case. Just look at the exploding expenditure on "administration" rather than education at these universities.

Universities exploit ridiculous student loan programs to make indentured servants out of their customers.

Re: Elite colleges are making it easy for conservatives to dislike them

#17

Post by confuseddesi » Thu, Nov 30, 2017, 5:09 PM UTC

vannevar wrote: post #14

confuseddesi wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps it is the American right-wing moving further right, but I am more inclined to believe the American left is moving farther left: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/01/why-ame... Take for example this speech by Bill Clinton in 1995: https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4654597/bill-clinton-illegal-... : "That's why our administration has moved aggressively to secure our borders more by hiring a record…

Not all that unfathomable, Obama deported record numbers of criminal illegals.

Here's another snippet from President Clinton:

"I have long opposed governmental recognition of same-gender marriages and this legislation is consistent with that position."

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/scotts/ftp/wpaf2mc/clinton....

Re: Elite colleges are making it easy for conservatives to dislike them

#18

Post by ZoeZoeBee » Thu, Nov 30, 2017, 5:10 PM UTC

vannevar wrote: post #14

confuseddesi wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps it is the American right-wing moving further right, but I am more inclined to believe the American left is moving farther left: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/01/why-ame... Take for example this speech by Bill Clinton in 1995: https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4654597/bill-clinton-illegal-... : "That's why our administration has moved aggressively to secure our borders more by hiring a record…

Not all that unfathomable, Obama deported record numbers of criminal illegals.

Deportations took a dramatic downfall in his second term and most of the "deportations" took place at the border, not in the way you think they did https://www.ice.gov/removal-statistics/2016

Always love the reflexive downvoting on the site, when facts don't match your view of reality

Re: Elite colleges are making it easy for conservatives to dislike them

#19

Post by Helloworldboy » Thu, Nov 30, 2017, 5:10 PM UTC

stupidcar wrote: post #11

nilkn wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this is really about free speech in the sense of the First Amendment. Universities are supposed to be about the pursuit of knowledge, and it's pretty unlikely that conservatives are wrong about everything and liberals are right about everything. Moreover, I don't think any reasonable person would say that any historical political party has ever been correct on every issue. So again it's quite unlikely t…

How are white supremacists a "fringe", when you have a US President who openly supports and defends them? Who spreads their propaganda to his 40 million Twitter followers? You can argue about to what extent his views are shared within the wider conservative movement, but when the conservative movement's democratically chosen leader supports an ideology like this, it is clearly not a "fringe".

Openly supports and defends?

I'm no Trump fan but this seems blatantly false. He seems to have been disavowing racists since the start.

Re: Elite colleges are making it easy for conservatives to dislike them

#20

Post by lordCarbonFiber » Thu, Nov 30, 2017, 5:11 PM UTC

thecatwentup wrote: post #13

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #3

As the American right-wing moves further right and further way from participating in consensus reality, it should be no surprise they are increasingly less welcome in spaces dedicated to the pursuit of knowledge. If you reject not only the politics of your opponents, but the value of fact itself, why should they listen to or accommodate you? https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/11/2/16588964/a...

What's interesting is that this is the exact attitude that the article is critical of. One persons perceived closed mindedness should not preclude them from sharing and refining their ideas in an academic setting, and being accepted as a member of the academic society.

The difference is that to participate in an acedemic setting you need to come with facts first.

This, extremely low, bar "elitist" as it may be is necessary to provide at least the bare minimum of protection against bad actors. People unwilling to change their view poison the space for all participants. The pursuit of an unmoderated ideal is a false one.