The world's most toxic value system (2001) • Hacker News Board

Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#11

Post by eric-hu » Tue, Nov 28, 2017, 5:08 AM UTC

georgewsinger wrote: post #3

> Created 19 November 2001, Last Update 30 August 2011 Looks like this was created right after 9/11. It's understandable why he wrote this. > It's considered bad form in many circles to criticize another culture's values. In addition, the social science literature contains a number of rationalizations for the "honor" mentality. One is that every value system makes sense to the people that hold it. Another is that eve…

> Rape and genocide and embezzlement also exist for a reason, and make sense to people who think a certain way.

> Something this author believes that most people (in our coastal bubbles) don't: that some cultures are better than others.

I think you can ask people in coastal bubbles about the rape and genocide cultures of various wars and embezzlement subcultures of various corporations. My money is on them saying those cultures are inferior.

Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#12

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Nov 28, 2017, 5:09 AM UTC

ChuckMcM wrote: post #10

There are a lot of works on the relative impact of honor or shame cultures. I was first exposed to that concept by some of the works of Roland Muller ( http://www.rmuller.com/ ). The thesis that is favored by Christian theology is that Jesus taught forgiveness as the word of God rather than retribution (eye for an eye) which has been the prevailing response, and in so doing changed cultures that had been stagnant for…

[deleted]

Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#13

Post by bobthechef » Tue, Nov 28, 2017, 5:10 AM UTC

georgewsinger wrote: post #3

> Created 19 November 2001, Last Update 30 August 2011 Looks like this was created right after 9/11. It's understandable why he wrote this. > It's considered bad form in many circles to criticize another culture's values. In addition, the social science literature contains a number of rationalizations for the "honor" mentality. One is that every value system makes sense to the people that hold it. Another is that eve…

Officially, perhaps, but our coastal bubbles clearly believe that current liberal democratic values and attitudes are superior.

Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#14

Post by andrewjl » Tue, Nov 28, 2017, 5:11 AM UTC

Declanomous wrote: post #7

This is interesting. At the risk of being lambasted for this view, I've often felt that this is the issue with a lot of places within the United States. For instance, I've always considered personal interactions in the South to be largely dictated by honor. I do not think it is coincidental that the poorest and least-educated areas of the country are the same area. I think a similar problem is at play in inner-city v…

True Detective Season 1 is a very deep, nuanced study of exactly what you describe in the South.

Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#15

Post by Nomentatus » Tue, Nov 28, 2017, 5:14 AM UTC

Without a working and well-funded criminal justice system, "Don't with me or my clan EVER" may be the best you can do, alas. As mentioned in another comment, if you're living in a U.S. inner city where talking to the police is taboo, similar conditions can develop.

"Irrationally" disproportionate responses to small problems ("display" in ape terms) may prevent worse problems and greater violence. It's not ideal, it's a fallback.

Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#16

Post by bobthechef » Tue, Nov 28, 2017, 5:14 AM UTC

ChuckMcM wrote: post #10

There are a lot of works on the relative impact of honor or shame cultures. I was first exposed to that concept by some of the works of Roland Muller ( http://www.rmuller.com/ ). The thesis that is favored by Christian theology is that Jesus taught forgiveness as the word of God rather than retribution (eye for an eye) which has been the prevailing response, and in so doing changed cultures that had been stagnant for…

The important thing to notice is that he author isn't talking about retribution being wrong per se, but private vendettas. Justice is by its very nature retributive. You cannot show mercy if retribution is not the deserved and proper response to a crime. One difference the author alludes to between justice meted out by the state and private vengeance is that the latter is characteristic of blood feuds.

Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#17

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Nov 28, 2017, 5:16 AM UTC

LiweiZ wrote: post #6

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[deleted]

Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#18

Post by tlb » Tue, Nov 28, 2017, 5:21 AM UTC

Moral Tribes, by Joshua Greene [0] has a more in-depth analysis of honor and other cultural attributes. You can find large geographical differences in the importance of honor within the US.

Cooperation also varies greatly around the world. Scores in a cooperation game (where you both win by cooperating) vary by an order of magnitude between countries. They are somewhat related, in that getting hosed by the other player in a cooperation game is merely annoying for a non-honor-oriented person, but humiliating for an honor-oriented person, so they're more likely to defect immediately. The article doesn't mention it, but that seems like the obvious mechanism for how thar causes poverty.

[0] http://www.joshua-greene.net/moral-tribes

Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#19

Post by TimTheTinker » Tue, Nov 28, 2017, 5:21 AM UTC

ChuckMcM wrote: post #10

There are a lot of works on the relative impact of honor or shame cultures. I was first exposed to that concept by some of the works of Roland Muller ( http://www.rmuller.com/ ). The thesis that is favored by Christian theology is that Jesus taught forgiveness as the word of God rather than retribution (eye for an eye) which has been the prevailing response, and in so doing changed cultures that had been stagnant for…

“Eye for an eye” is part of the Mosaic law and simply defines the penalty for personal assault (to be carried out only as an order from a magistrate after a hearing).

It does not at all condone revenge. For his followers, Jesus explicitly forbade revenge (or using such laws as justification for revenge):

"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.“ (from Matthew 5 ESV)

Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#20

Post by aaron-lebo » Tue, Nov 28, 2017, 5:23 AM UTC

andrewjl wrote: post #14

Declanomous wrote: post #7

This is interesting. At the risk of being lambasted for this view, I've often felt that this is the issue with a lot of places within the United States. For instance, I've always considered personal interactions in the South to be largely dictated by honor. I do not think it is coincidental that the poorest and least-educated areas of the country are the same area. I think a similar problem is at play in inner-city v…

True Detective Season 1 is a very deep, nuanced study of exactly what you describe in the South.

How so? It didn't especially focus on honor or vendettas, it was about cults, abuse, and a cover-up. Based in the South, yeah, but not getting the honor connection.