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The Moral Urgency of Mental Health

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Re: The Moral Urgency of Mental Health

#11

Post by DubiousPusher »

aaavl2821 wrote: post #9
jes wrote: post #4

I am hopeful that we will soon see AI-based psychotherapy available at scale at a price such that anyone who wants it will be able to get it. I can imagine that it would be more or less like having a telephone conversation with a real therapist, except in this case the therapist is an AI application running in a datacenter. I think we will see something like this in the next five to ten years. Thoughts?

It would be great if that were possible, but a lot of the value of therapy comes from the therapeutic relationship rather than a specific type of therapy. Most types of psychotherapy tend to have the same level of effect in studies, suggesting there is no "recipe" for the type of therapy that works. This phenomenon also suggests (but does not prove) that the human relationship, rather than therapeutic program, accoun…

I thought Cognitive Behavioral Therapy was actually the only kind of talk therapy that showed greater effect than placebo.

Re: The Moral Urgency of Mental Health

#12

Post by aaavl2821 »

DubiousPusher wrote: post #11
aaavl2821 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be great if that were possible, but a lot of the value of therapy comes from the therapeutic relationship rather than a specific type of therapy. Most types of psychotherapy tend to have the same level of effect in studies, suggesting there is no "recipe" for the type of therapy that works. This phenomenon also suggests (but does not prove) that the human relationship, rather than therapeutic program, accoun…

I thought Cognitive Behavioral Therapy was actually the only kind of talk therapy that showed greater effect than placebo.

Cognitive behavioral therapy is a more standardized and measurable type of therapy than things like interpersonal therapy or problem solving therapy or psychodynamic therapy, and thus it is easier to study in a controlled setting. So there are more studies of CBT than other types of therapy just because it is easier to study

I don't have references offhand but there are controlled studies that show benefit of other types of therapy

Overall all though, all psychotherapy studies are messy

Re: The Moral Urgency of Mental Health

#13

Post by DubiousPusher »

chris_wot wrote: post #3

Mental Health for those in crisis is fucked. If you feel suicidal, you get locked up. It’s as simple as that.

While simultaneously, you can have a person clearly unable to provide self care who is denied access to any kind of inpatient care because they are not "a danger to themselves or someone else."

Re: The Moral Urgency of Mental Health

#14

Post by mjevans »

chris_wot wrote: post #3

Mental Health for those in crisis is fucked. If you feel suicidal, you get locked up. It’s as simple as that.

My own personal theory on this matter is that a lot of emotional state is feedback loops.

Have a positive environment where things tend to go well and everyone else likes you? Then you share in to that same environment (drink the Koolaid).

Have a mostly neutral or slightly negative environment? Then you end up circling the drain hoping to have an energy exchange that allows you escape velocity in to the above rather than...

Having a mostly negative environment; even if it's just a little. The slow crushing weight of reality and those around you chips away at every part of your being and self until there is nothing left but a broken and hateful individual. May become either a neutron star (hermit) or go supernova (usually leading to jail or death).

Re: The Moral Urgency of Mental Health

#15

Post by DoreenMichele »

Overall, the researchers claim, eliminating depression and anxiety would reduce misery by 20%, whereas eliminating poverty would reduce it by just 5%. If we want to reduce misery in the developed world, then mental health is the biggest challenge we need to overcome.

Everything I have ever seen suggests that the chronically poor have intractable personal issues, such as medical problems, mental health problems, learning disabilities or other personal issues. So this seems like a false dichotomy to me.

Re: The Moral Urgency of Mental Health

#16

Post by jorgec »

DanBC wrote: post #2

> In the United Kingdom, it costs about £650 per patient to provide psychotherapy, which is effective for about 50% of patients. That figure indicates how much governments would need to spend, but does not take into account what they might get back. they don't appear to provide a source for this. The English NHS collects, and publishes, a lot of data for the IAPT (Improved access to psychological therapies programme)…

psychotherapy is less than 10% effective. In fact, its almost no science.

Re: The Moral Urgency of Mental Health

#17

Post by alfithehermutt »

Mental health needs to be a huge priority.

I have several teenager relatives all depressed. The constant social media and comparisons to the top 10% of people in beauty, intelligence, money, and etc are destroying them. Ive caught my teenage nephew and niece watching tons of plastic surgery qa on youtube.

We really need to get our primate impulses in check. Im hoping the research on brain implants will help overcome our ugly genetic history.

Re: The Moral Urgency of Mental Health

#18

Post by pacaro »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #15

Overall, the researchers claim, eliminating depression and anxiety would reduce misery by 20%, whereas eliminating poverty would reduce it by just 5%. If we want to reduce misery in the developed world, then mental health is the biggest challenge we need to overcome. Everything I have ever seen suggests that the chronically poor have intractable personal issues, such as medical problems, mental health problems, learn…

I would see it as less a false dichotomy than just recognizing that these issues are not always orthogonal.

Re: The Moral Urgency of Mental Health

#19

Post by phkahler »

jorgec wrote: post #16
DanBC wrote: post #2

> In the United Kingdom, it costs about £650 per patient to provide psychotherapy, which is effective for about 50% of patients. That figure indicates how much governments would need to spend, but does not take into account what they might get back. they don't appear to provide a source for this. The English NHS collects, and publishes, a lot of data for the IAPT (Improved access to psychological therapies programme)…

psychotherapy is less than 10% effective. In fact, its almost no science.

And when it goes wrong the practitioner will lie in your medical records to cover it up. When it goes even more wrong and the person is dead they'll just say "s(he) had serious issues". Having said that, I've seen it do wonders for some people.

Re: The Moral Urgency of Mental Health

#20

Post by DoreenMichele »

pacaro wrote: post #18
DoreenMichele wrote: post #15

Overall, the researchers claim, eliminating depression and anxiety would reduce misery by 20%, whereas eliminating poverty would reduce it by just 5%. If we want to reduce misery in the developed world, then mental health is the biggest challenge we need to overcome. Everything I have ever seen suggests that the chronically poor have intractable personal issues, such as medical problems, mental health problems, learn…

I would see it as less a false dichotomy than just recognizing that these issues are not always orthogonal.

I don't really understand that use of the word orthogonal.

But for clarity's sake: I have read about issues like poverty for decades. In any given year, about 10 to 15 percent of Americans are below the federal poverty level. But only about 2 percent of Americans are chronically poor. This is typically defined as below the federal poverty level for at least 5 years out of 10.

In fact, I have even seen stats that suggest that being in the bottom 20 percent in one year is actually a reasonable predictor for being in the top 20 percent the following year. Some people below the federal poverty level in a given year are temporarily unemployed and job hunting. In some cases, they are actually starting a new business. So, most folks don't stay below the poverty level.

The people who are chronically poor are the ones that have significant personal challenges. These personal challenges both make them miserable and are also a root cause of their poverty. If they can't resolve their personal issues in some manner, they remain poor.

I have not only studied such things, I have lived it. Misery is not just having X problem, but knowing that you may never be able to resolve it and that the world does a really sucky job of providing some means for people like you to have some kind of baseline level of comfort. It is a kind of personal hell.

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