Live data from Hacker News

The impossibility of intelligence explosion

medium.com

11–20 of 143 posts

Re: The impossibility of intelligence explosion

#11
The author makes several points about AI/intelligence and recursive systems that I think a lot of people who think "AI will take over the world and replace" humans [1][2][3] don't understand.

He argues that general intelligence by itself is not really something that exists, our brains exist within a broader system (environment, culture, bodies, etc.) which is something you can read more about in embodied cognition: https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/a-brief-guid...

He also argues that the public debate about "AI regulation" is misleading because it's impossible for a "seed AI" to start designing smarter AI's that will surpass the intelligence of humans which is what a lot of people today think will happen with AI. Automation of jobs and tasks is very real, but completely replacing humans and potentially destroying us all is a joke and only the people who no nothing about AI/brains think this.

[1] https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/03/elon-musk-billion-do...

[2] https://www.cnbc.com/2017/07/17/elon-musk-robots-will-be-abl...

[3] https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/07/17/537686649...

Re: The impossibility of intelligence explosion

#12
"An individual brain cannot implement recursive intelligence augmentation. An overwhelming amount of evidence points to this simple fact: a single human brain, on its own, is not capable of designing a greater intelligence than itself. This is a purely empirical statement: out of billions of human brains that have come and gone, none has done so. Clearly, the intelligence of a single human, over a single lifetime, cannot design intelligence, or else, over billions of trials, it would have already occurred."

The same argument could have been about human flight (or any other invention). Billions of human beings over millions of years had come and gone, and yet none had been able to fly. Until they did.

There's also a point to be made about humans not having adequate tools for introspection or self-modification. We can not simply look in our brains/minds and read our source code, nor easily tweak it to see what would happen without great risks to our lives. A computer could. Furthermore, a computer could potentially run billions or trillions such experiments in the course of a single human lifetime.

"no human, nor any intelligent entity that we know of, has ever developed anything smarter than itself."

What about humans simply having smarter children? In many ways, humanity's creation of AI could be seen as analogous to giving birth to a child that's smarter than its parents.

"Beyond contextual hard limits, even if one part of a system has the ability to recursively self-improve, other parts of the system will inevitably start acting as bottlenecks. Antagonistic processes will arise in response to recursive self-improvement and squash it ... a brain with smarter parts will have more trouble coordinating them ... Exponential progress, meet exponential friction."

The problem is the author is looking at human-level problems with human-level intelligence. A superintelligence may have no such problems, or be able to easily resolve them. Once over the initial speed bump of creating such an intelligence it could be smooth sailing from then on. There's no way to tell, really, what its limits will be until it exists. Besides, even if it can't exponentially increase its own intelligence forever, even a relatively slight increase of intelligence over humanity could be a massive gamechanger.

Re: The impossibility of intelligence explosion

#13
post #8
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point he is trying to make is that there are boundaries to intelligence. I think of it this way - no matter how smart an AI is, it still would take 4.3 years to reach Alpha Centauri going at the speed of light . An AI still needs to run experiments, collect evidence, conjure hypothesis, reach consensus, etc.. Is this really that far more efficient than what humans do today?

Is this really that far more efficient than what humans do today? A major managerial problem with humans is sorting out our irrational emotional biases and keeping everyone working on something resembling the appointed task. Can you imagine the productivity gain if that problem suddenly went away?

But our emotional biases are also what keeps us on the appointed task!

Re: The impossibility of intelligence explosion

#14
> If intelligence is fundamentally linked to specific sensorimotor modalities, a specific environment, a specific upbringing, and a specific problem to solve, then you cannot hope to arbitrarily increase the intelligence of an agent merely by tuning its brain — no more than you can increase the throughput of a factory line by speeding up the conveyor belt.

The latter part makes no sense at all. Of course you can increase the throughput of a factory by speeding up "the conveyor belt"--a standin for the complex processes going into manufacturing.

The whole statement is also wrong. Of course you can increase intelligence by optimizing the process of learning. Fewer trials, quicker reactions, faster construction of models, more complex understanding of fundamentals of a given problem.

The author makes broad assertions like this with glaring holes with zero evidence.

Re: The impossibility of intelligence explosion

#15
post #4

This manages to get lost in its own trees. From a reductionist perspective: - Intelligence greater than human is possible - Intelligence is the operation of a machine; it can be reverse engineered - Intelligence can be built - Better intelligences will be better at improving the state of the art in building better, more cost-effective intelligences Intelligence explosion on some timescale will result the moment you c…

Why isn't it possible (or likely, even) that the difficulty of constructing capacity X+1 grows faster than the +1 capacity? Self-improvement would slow exponentially when it takes three times the resources/computation/whatever to construct something that's twice as good at self-improving, for example.

You're arguing that it's not an exponential that doesn't continue to the right indefinitely.

But what if it follows a sigmoid instead, but the plateau is much higher than the current level?

This is what punctuated equilibria look like -- even if the 'new thing' isn't actually a singularity, it may be enormously disruptive and completely displace whatever came before.

Re: The impossibility of intelligence explosion

#16
post #7

This is a stupid article, and reading it will only make you stupider. First, it is undoubtably true that human brains are better suited to being human than AIs would be. That is irrelevant to the question of whether AIs will be better at the task of creating better technologies. Second, it is absolutely false that improvement is incremental. Consider the game of Go. For a long time, computers sucked at Go. Then we ca…

> If we have a computer program that is able to design better hardware, it can be improved by simply moving it to better hardware.

Could you please elaborate? What is it about "better hardware" that makes software that runs on it "better"? Can you define "better"?

Re: The impossibility of intelligence explosion

#17
Many of these arguments fail in one little detail: You don't need to even understand how intelligence works to improve an AI.

Almost by definition, a human level AGI is automatically super intelligent.

Robert Miles explains it very well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gP4ZNUHdwp8

Re: The impossibility of intelligence explosion

#18
post #14

> If intelligence is fundamentally linked to specific sensorimotor modalities, a specific environment, a specific upbringing, and a specific problem to solve, then you cannot hope to arbitrarily increase the intelligence of an agent merely by tuning its brain — no more than you can increase the throughput of a factory line by speeding up the conveyor belt. The latter part makes no sense at all. Of course you can incr…

"The whole statement is also wrong. Of course you can increase intelligence by optimizing the process of learning."

One of the author's main points is that "intelligence" in the way you mentioned, learning and optimization, is simply one aspect of the human mind. So we could optimize our minds (or an AI program) to beat anyone at the game of Go and play perfectly, but that's all it is optimized to do. It can understand "the given problem" but there is FAR MORE to our minds than optimizing and learning how to solve a task.

Proponents of "build a general AI system that will surpass humans at everything" don't seem to understand this.

Re: The impossibility of intelligence explosion

#19

This manages to get lost in its own trees. From a reductionist perspective: - Intelligence greater than human is possible - Intelligence is the operation of a machine; it can be reverse engineered - Intelligence can be built - Better intelligences will be better at improving the state of the art in building better, more cost-effective intelligences Intelligence explosion on some timescale will result the moment you c…

Part of the problem with trying to formalize this argument is that intelligence is woefully underdefinined. There are plenty of initially reasonable sounding definitions that don't necessarily lead to the ability to improve the state of the art w.r.t. 'better' intelligence.

For instance much of modern machine learning produces things that from a black box perspective are indistinguishable from an intelligent agent, however it'd be absurd to task Alpha-go to develop a better go playing bot.

There are plenty of scenarios that result in a non-intelligence explosion, i.e. the difficulty in creating the next generation increases faster than the gains in intelligence. Different components of intelligence are mutually incompatible: speed and quality are prototypical examples. There are points where assumptions must be made and backtracking is very costly. The space of different intelligences is non-concave and has many non-linearity, exploring it and communicating the results starts to hit the limits of speed of light.

I'm sure there are other potential limitations, they aren't hard to come up with.

Re: The impossibility of intelligence explosion

#20
This article draws some false parallels.

1. He argues that intelligence is situational, but doesn't address clones. What happens if AI can clone Einstein, with all of his situational knowledge? What if AI can clone Einstein and all of his colleagues, 1M times, creating 1M parallel Princetons?

Similarly, he says most of our intelligence is in our civilization, but what's to stop us from cloning big chunks of our civilizations... simulating them, but using vastly less power/resources for each simulation? Then writing software to have them pass knowledge among the civilizations? We have just a few hundred countries, what if we had a trillion communicating at the speed of computer circuitry?

And he says an individual brain cannot recursively improve itself... so again, what about a group of brains, set up in a simulated world where they don't even know we exist?

2. He cites the growth in numbers of computer programmers as a reason not to fear an explosion of AI computer programmers. His argument goes "we have a lot more recently, yet it has not caused exponential changes in software."

But there is a difference between going from 0->1M programmers, to 1M->100T programmers.

3) He writes that recursively self-improving systems exist and haven't destroyed us (military, science), but many people believe these things will in fact destroy us, before we get off this rock.

The overall flaw is thinking we can interpret the AI-assisted future, given the context of current society's linear achievements. When in fact exponential effects look linear in small timeframes, and we have only been really thinking and expanding science for a few thousand years.

If someone wants to present an argument against the AI explosion, I'd believe it if it were premised in some sort of physical bottleneck... like how much energy it would take to run a human-level AI. I don't think I can ever accept a philosophical argument like this one.

All that said, I think we're far away from being able to engineer AIs that will outthink our civilization and take us over. Better to worry about other exponential or non-differentiable terrors like runaway greenhouse effects and military buildup.

Post reply on HN