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Rebuilding Quantum Theory From Simple Physical Principles

quantamagazine.org

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Re: Rebuilding Quantum Theory From Simple Physical Principles

#11
post #6
post #2

Reading this I see for the first time why the notion that the universe is a simulation isn't so far fetched.

I have to disagree and I can not really understand what is so appealing about the simulation idea to many. It is an idea that will lead nowhere because you are unable to distinguish a real universe from a simulated one. In order to do this you would have to know what at least one of those scenarios looks like and then compare the universe you observe to what you know to be true about a real or simulated universe. It…

Personally I find the peculiar implication of a simple question so appealing. Will we eventually be able to create simulations that one would be unable to differentiate from reality if that simulation is all they had ever known? The answer there is quite self evident, yet it simultaneously somehow implies it is highly likely that we are ourselves within a simulation.

The reason is that we can safely assume that we are within one of n + 1 realities. The n simulated realities and the 1 real reality. Unless you attribute some sort of exceptionalism bordering on creationism to our existence, there's every reason to think that n is going to proportional to the number of advanced civilizations in existence and is presumably going to be very very large. And as you increase n the odds of us actually being in the 'real' reality, which are of course just 1/(n+1), approach 0.

Like you mention it's something that doesn't necessarily go anywhere. Even if you "prove" it after death, that life you'd be experiencing at that point faces the same logical issue - at least unless the argument loses consistency at some point. Something most seem reluctant to admit is that it's also comforting as an atheist. I always expected the infinity of time after my existence to be very much akin to the infinity of time before my existence. That's just disappointing. The seemingly high probability that all is not as it seems is certainly emotionally appealing. But it's certainly not just the emotional appeal driving me there - I could obviously have chosen to invoke Pascal's Wager in the decades of time prior to considering this, but it seemed fake -- this, somehow, does not.

It also answers, or at least compellingly kicks the can, of the question of existence. If I write a program to spit out a random number, I presume that there is no entity that suddenly whisks into existence under the false impression that it is choosing a random number - which it then decides upon, before then being whisked out of existence. So why am I, the 'thing' spectating the outcome of the series of chemical and electrical reactions carried out by this body, here? Descartes would have quite the time if the answer to our little question had been yes during his time. It changes the picture so much more than the dreams that drove his ponderances.

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From a scientific point of view, it's obviously not a great concept as it cannot be falsified. And like you mention, it also cannot really be physically proven without begging the question. On the other hand, it can be treated as a soft science and if a preponderance of evidence does lean towards supporting it then we can at least say, "Hmm.. well we can't really say anything for certain, but that's certainly interesting."

Re: Rebuilding Quantum Theory From Simple Physical Principles

#12
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to disagree and I can not really understand what is so appealing about the simulation idea to many. It is an idea that will lead nowhere because you are unable to distinguish a real universe from a simulated one. In order to do this you would have to know what at least one of those scenarios looks like and then compare the universe you observe to what you know to be true about a real or simulated universe. It…

Personally I find the peculiar implication of a simple question so appealing. Will we eventually be able to create simulations that one would be unable to differentiate from reality if that simulation is all they had ever known? The answer there is quite self evident, yet it simultaneously somehow implies it is highly likely that we are ourselves within a simulation. The reason is that we can safely assume that we ar…

Could you support the premise you can make an undetectable simulation?

That's a key proposition and you don't support it at all. I find the idea highly questionable.

Re: Rebuilding Quantum Theory From Simple Physical Principles

#13
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to disagree and I can not really understand what is so appealing about the simulation idea to many. It is an idea that will lead nowhere because you are unable to distinguish a real universe from a simulated one. In order to do this you would have to know what at least one of those scenarios looks like and then compare the universe you observe to what you know to be true about a real or simulated universe. It…

Personally I find the peculiar implication of a simple question so appealing. Will we eventually be able to create simulations that one would be unable to differentiate from reality if that simulation is all they had ever known? The answer there is quite self evident, yet it simultaneously somehow implies it is highly likely that we are ourselves within a simulation. The reason is that we can safely assume that we ar…

VM jailbreak in the future?

Then again it might have already happened, and we got rolled back to the last known good image.

Re: Rebuilding Quantum Theory From Simple Physical Principles

#14
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to disagree and I can not really understand what is so appealing about the simulation idea to many. It is an idea that will lead nowhere because you are unable to distinguish a real universe from a simulated one. In order to do this you would have to know what at least one of those scenarios looks like and then compare the universe you observe to what you know to be true about a real or simulated universe. It…

Personally I find the peculiar implication of a simple question so appealing. Will we eventually be able to create simulations that one would be unable to differentiate from reality if that simulation is all they had ever known? The answer there is quite self evident, yet it simultaneously somehow implies it is highly likely that we are ourselves within a simulation. The reason is that we can safely assume that we ar…

I am already not convinced that it is likely that there are a huge number of faithful simulations. It seems to me that simulating a universe faithfully would more or less consume all the resources of that universe. So all simulations could at best be heavily simplified versions of reality, like the worlds in our computer games compared to our universe. That of course doesn't preclude our universe from just being a simple game in an outer universe that would be vastly richer or huger or more complex than our universe. But it makes arguments like that all advanced civilizations will surly want to create ancestor simulations or things like that harder to justify.

The argument that we are most likely in a simulation because there are many of them and only one reality doesn't sit well with me either. Nobody at any level of nested simulations would be justified to believe that he is not simulated but actually lives in the outermost real universe. So why is it more likely that someone else lives in the real universe than us? Someone has to be the exception, why not us? I am unable to formalize it and maybe I am just committing a logical error, but something seems wrong to me if the conclusions everyone draws are, when taken together, obviously wrong, i.e. everyone concludes he is almost surely not in the outermost level but someone certainly is.

Re: Rebuilding Quantum Theory From Simple Physical Principles

#15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally I find the peculiar implication of a simple question so appealing. Will we eventually be able to create simulations that one would be unable to differentiate from reality if that simulation is all they had ever known? The answer there is quite self evident, yet it simultaneously somehow implies it is highly likely that we are ourselves within a simulation. The reason is that we can safely assume that we ar…

Could you support the premise you can make an undetectable simulation? That's a key proposition and you don't support it at all. I find the idea highly questionable.

Do you think a NPC in a game could figure out that he is just a character controlled by the game logic? Current games are obviously far away from having conscious NPCs but I neither see any fundamental problem with having NPCs controlled by artificial brains nor any obvious way how such a NPC could figure out that he lives within a game.

Or what if, while you are asleep, someone essentially detaches your brain from your body and uses the signals your brain sends to control a simulation of your body in a virtual environment and feeds back the simulation output into your brain as what you see, hear, feel, and smell? How would you detect that you are no longer really in the real world when you wake up?

Re: Rebuilding Quantum Theory From Simple Physical Principles

#16
post #6
post #2

Reading this I see for the first time why the notion that the universe is a simulation isn't so far fetched.

I have to disagree and I can not really understand what is so appealing about the simulation idea to many. It is an idea that will lead nowhere because you are unable to distinguish a real universe from a simulated one. In order to do this you would have to know what at least one of those scenarios looks like and then compare the universe you observe to what you know to be true about a real or simulated universe. It…

It is appealing for three reasons.

1) As computer engineers we understand it's doable. Give it a couple of centuries and our civilization could reach a computing capacity to simulate the entire observable universe

2) A lot of things just don't make sense. Like consciousness for example. We can't define it, and we don't even know it it's real. If you take consciousness out of the equation humans are just laborious software.

3) This is objective of course, but quite a lot of people are experiencing coincidences that seem unreal. That sounds metaphysics and most of us wouldn't touch it with a barge pole but from a simulation perspective makes total sense.

Oh and it makes a lot of people uncomfortable. For me it's one of the best ways to test someone's intellect. You bring it into a conversation and people start feeling unease.

Re: Rebuilding Quantum Theory From Simple Physical Principles

#17
post #16
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to disagree and I can not really understand what is so appealing about the simulation idea to many. It is an idea that will lead nowhere because you are unable to distinguish a real universe from a simulated one. In order to do this you would have to know what at least one of those scenarios looks like and then compare the universe you observe to what you know to be true about a real or simulated universe. It…

It is appealing for three reasons. 1) As computer engineers we understand it's doable. Give it a couple of centuries and our civilization could reach a computing capacity to simulate the entire observable universe 2) A lot of things just don't make sense. Like consciousness for example. We can't define it, and we don't even know it it's real. If you take consciousness out of the equation humans are just laborious sof…

> Give it a couple of centuries and our civilization could reach a computing capacity to simulate the entire observable universe

This is not even remotely true, not even if a perfect Moore's law were to continue for thousands of years. Man, we're hard pressed to even simulate single molecules.

> quite a lot of people are experiencing coincidences that seem unreal

Oh come on x) "Coincidences" are psychological illusions and misatribution biases at work, not the work of an intelligence behind our universe. This is the "I prayed to god and my back pain healed; it's a miracle" type of thinking.

Re: Rebuilding Quantum Theory From Simple Physical Principles

#18
post #16
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to disagree and I can not really understand what is so appealing about the simulation idea to many. It is an idea that will lead nowhere because you are unable to distinguish a real universe from a simulated one. In order to do this you would have to know what at least one of those scenarios looks like and then compare the universe you observe to what you know to be true about a real or simulated universe. It…

It is appealing for three reasons. 1) As computer engineers we understand it's doable. Give it a couple of centuries and our civilization could reach a computing capacity to simulate the entire observable universe 2) A lot of things just don't make sense. Like consciousness for example. We can't define it, and we don't even know it it's real. If you take consciousness out of the equation humans are just laborious sof…

As computer engineers we understand it's doable. Give it a couple of centuries and our civilization could reach a computing capacity to simulate the entire observable universe

This seems at the very least questionable. Why do you think you can simulate the entire universe just using a tiny fraction of the resources of the universe? It seems to me that could only work if the universe were highly compressible and I don't see any obvious evidence for that. And even then I think it could not work because if the universe is in some sense redundant and could be compressed then it actually provides less resources to work with than if it would not have those redundancies.

Take as an analogy for the later two processors executing the same code in lockstep as it is sometimes done for redundancy in safety critical systems. You can mostly get away with only simulating one of the processors but you essentially also only have one processor to work with. And while you can probably simulate the processors on the processors the simulation will probably be at least ten times slower than the actual processor if you only want to use one tenth of the available resources, i.e. clock cycles. And finally memory will be a real problem because you only have as much memory available as you want to simulate.

Re: Rebuilding Quantum Theory From Simple Physical Principles

#19
Any role for Pilot Wave Theory here?

https://www.quantamagazine.org/pilot-wave-theory-gains-exper...

> An experiment claims to have invalidated a decades-old criticism against pilot-wave theory, an alternative formulation of quantum mechanics that avoids the most baffling features of the subatomic universe.

Re: Rebuilding Quantum Theory From Simple Physical Principles

#20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally I find the peculiar implication of a simple question so appealing. Will we eventually be able to create simulations that one would be unable to differentiate from reality if that simulation is all they had ever known? The answer there is quite self evident, yet it simultaneously somehow implies it is highly likely that we are ourselves within a simulation. The reason is that we can safely assume that we ar…

Could you support the premise you can make an undetectable simulation? That's a key proposition and you don't support it at all. I find the idea highly questionable.

Consider that your perception of reality is just that. What your brain tells you and what is really there are not necessarily the same thing. There was another excellent article on QuantaMagazine arguing that there's even an evolutionary imperative that would drive our brains to beneficially misrepresent reality: https://www.quantamagazine.org/the-evolutionary-argument-aga... That article is a bit of another very interesting tangent.

The point is that reality is little more than what you experience. All that simulating a reality requires is that an individual's experiences are able to be constrained to within the controlled ream. Take a child, 'disable' all senses except sight - and install permanent VR goggles. That child, lacking outside interference, will believe in a reality that is not really real. Should it develop the cognition to wonder it will likely do as we do. Why do large bodies attract one another? We can explain the operation of this through perhaps the curvature of spacetime, but that then again one can ask then why is there spacetime? At some level the answer simply ends up being that because that is the way it is - a inherent facet of our universe.

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