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Why is computer science a sausage fest?

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Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?

#11

Post by masklinn »

kylec wrote: post #3

CS education works best for people who already know how to code before they begin. CS teaches the theory behind a practice in which they assume you already have some skill. Women are less likely to already know, because they don’t play video games as much. This does not make any sense. How does playing video games translate to coding skill?

It doesn't, but it probably is an entry point, especially for older (PC-based) generations: involvement in tech & computing, desire to understand the underside of that world, modding (especially with full-blown programming language e.g. Python for Civ IV, Lua for WoW), involvement in communities more likely than average to be in tech and prog, etc...

Playing games other than twitch-shooters also feels a lot like programming in many ways: you have to discover the rules, features and limitations of the system and work within them to reach your goal, and all of these tend to be rather well defined.

I can only speak for myself, but video games were indeed what birthed my interest in computers, and later on in programming.

Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?

#12

Post by petercooper »

A "sausage fest"? Classy rhetoric! Is nursing a "tits fest" or elementary education a "vagina fest"?

It'll be great when intelligent people can stop identifying themselves or their sense of humor by their genitalia, race, or any other physical characteristic that has little to do with how good they can be as people.

I agree that women might not want to hear "dick jokes" or "be groped" but most people don't regardless of gender. It's not a male/female dichotomy we're dealing with - it's a respect/idiocy dichotomy.

Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?

#13

Post by 10char »

kylec wrote: post #3

CS education works best for people who already know how to code before they begin. CS teaches the theory behind a practice in which they assume you already have some skill. Women are less likely to already know, because they don’t play video games as much. This does not make any sense. How does playing video games translate to coding skill?

Not necessarily to skill, but to exposure to programming in general.

I'd wager that people (kids) get interested in programming by using technology and wondering, "Hey, how does this work?" I'd further bet that this occurs far more often in connection to video games than, say, Word or Outlook, since video games are fun and creative. For the past few decades, far more boys than girls play video games. Hence, by college, more young men have been exposed to programming than young women.

Now, with the advent of the web (which is more or less gender neutral) and social gaming, I expect to see an increase in the number of women getting into programming over the next decade. Nowadays, it seems to me that there are more "fun" things that programming has made possible which have yet to be skewed towards the Y chromosome.

Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?

#14

Post by awongh »

ugh. I really can't help but cringe whenever anyone tries to throw their hat into the ring and take on this problem, even if they have an inside take.

CS education also focuses a lot of effort on puzzles and very abstract concepts when practical applications where you can see the why and how might work better for women (and a hell of a lot of men). I like yummy algorithms, but we could make CS education more accessible by putting them in context.

I kind of wish this had happened when I was doing CS. What does that say about me? (I'm a guy)

I think these kind of over-generalizations about an entire gender do nothing but contribute to the PC echo chamber.

I don't know what contributes to the gender disparity, but I can say that I have plenty of male friends who also can't really contemplate being a programmer, and for many of the same reasons that are cited that women may not be attracted to the profession... I think it can be an intimidating profession no matter what your gender- anything like coding that has such an insular culture is the same.... Maybe it's just a chicken and egg problem.

Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?

#15

Post by gamble »

> We are veterinary technicians not veterinarians, dental assistants not dentists, medical assistants not doctors.

Women are now a slight majority of medical students and ~95% of nurses. Women make up >75% of the students in veterinary school, and around ~50% of students in dental school.

Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?

#16

Post by dman »

kylec wrote: post #3

CS education works best for people who already know how to code before they begin. CS teaches the theory behind a practice in which they assume you already have some skill. Women are less likely to already know, because they don’t play video games as much. This does not make any sense. How does playing video games translate to coding skill?

Also of note : according to http://gamegirl.blogfaction.com/article/107252/top-7-statist... and http://www.grabstats.com/statcategorymain.asp?StatCatID=13 nearly 40% of video game players are women.

Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?

#17

Post by kscaldef »

kylec wrote: post #3

CS education works best for people who already know how to code before they begin. CS teaches the theory behind a practice in which they assume you already have some skill. Women are less likely to already know, because they don’t play video games as much. This does not make any sense. How does playing video games translate to coding skill?

I'm less certain these day, where video games are so sophisticated that no neophyte can hope to replicate them; but I grew up in an age where kids learned to program writing Zork-clones in BASIC.

Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?

#18

Post by btn »

mattdw wrote: post #4
gwern wrote: post #2

As usual, I like Philip Greenspun's explanation better than all of the anecdotes and fuzzy generalizations in this blog post: http://philip.greenspun.com/careers/acm-women-in-computing http://philip.greenspun.com/careers/women-in-science tl;dr: It's because the women who would do well in CS/STEM have much better paying, or easier, or more prestigious options available to them.

…or, you know, the directly hostile and sexist things women sometimes experience in the industry. As described in the original post. Not to say that Greenspun is wrong in his conclusions, but when women are saying "I find it unpleasant to be in the industry because…", it seems kinda patronising to turn around and suggest that they're wrong.

It's not saying that they're wrong, but that there are factors beside sexism and bigotry that contribute to the problem.

Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?

#19

Post by alanh »

> On the other hand, he assumes those women didn’t deserve to be sent to JSConf. Why should he assume that?

Utter crap. That’s clearly not what the critics are concerned about. The women may indeed deserve to go — but no more than men who are not being offered the same grants. This is what is objectionable. This, and the implication that women need pushed into the field or artificially assisted, strike some as sexist.

While she does make some good points towards the end, this whole piece is strewn with similar assumptions of male sexism, and is devoid of any realization that some perceived affirmative action as reverse discrimination.

Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?

#20

Post by nostrademons »

petercooper wrote: post #12

A "sausage fest"? Classy rhetoric! Is nursing a "tits fest" or elementary education a "vagina fest"? It'll be great when intelligent people can stop identifying themselves or their sense of humor by their genitalia, race, or any other physical characteristic that has little to do with how good they can be as people . I agree that women might not want to hear "dick jokes" or "be groped" but most people don't regardles…

The antonym for "sausage fest" is usually "clam bake" or "taco party".
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