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Algorithms Have Already Gone Rogue

wired.com

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Re: Algorithms Have Already Gone Rogue

#11

Post by zghst »

"why capitalism is like a rogue AI"

These people seriously need to take a step back. At some point you cross the bridge between reporting and actively advertising someone's personal views.

I can't ever trust or read people who constantly try to push an agenda, it's disingenuous. Even more so, when reporting, engaging in personal exchange without the discussing data and statistics, i.e. the facts, you are just allowing yourself to become a personal blog of someone else.

Reporters are supposed to fact check, look for concrete evidence in someone's statements, hold people accountable to their words, and yet certain people get a pass all the time, even the star treatment.

Re: Algorithms Have Already Gone Rogue

#13

Post by mathgenius »

The financial system is a giant message passing algorithm. It is pretty much just a min-sum algorithm [1] whose sole purpose is to answer the question "what should we do?". Anyone who has played around with these algorithms for solving decoding problems knows that they are fabulously powerful.

But these message passing algorithms have two weaknesses:

(A) When there is more than one solution

(B) When there are small loops in the message network

By far the worst problem is (B): it's a kind of a "corruption" of the network and causes it to pretty much go off the rails. I think people already do understand the consequences of these problems in the financial system, but we don't seem to see how we can just change the topology and/or the messages themselves, in particular, to try to fix up these self-reinforcing loops. Or: move away from min-sum towards sum-product (which often works an order of magnitude better) by perhaps implementing basic income. Etc. Etc.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalized_distributive_law

Re: Algorithms Have Already Gone Rogue

#14

Post by VincentEvans »

pizza234 wrote: post #5
Iv wrote: post #2

Sorry but it is hard to take seriously someone who thinks AI and automation won't take away jobs. They will and it is a good thing.

That's a loaded statement. You could say as well that's it's hard to take seriously those who don't know the lump of labour fallacy.

If you think that models that are used to think about economy in aggregate somehow act as a guarantee that a life of an individual will not be wrecked as a result of large-scale automation.... well, lets discuss "lump of labor fallacy" when a former truck driver is "replacing" his job with 3 gig-economy part time jobs that sprung out as result of the "expanding economy".

It's not that those models are wrong, it's that it's a very different thing to read about 20 years of traumatic events from the pages of books on economics, vs. having to live through it.

Re: Algorithms Have Already Gone Rogue

#15

Post by seppin »

Iv wrote: post #2

Sorry but it is hard to take seriously someone who thinks AI and automation won't take away jobs. They will and it is a good thing.

> They will and it is a good thing.

Donald Trump, and whatever opportunist demagogue comes after him, agree with you.

Re: Algorithms Have Already Gone Rogue

#16

Post by marcosdumay »

fiblye wrote: post #9
Iv wrote: post #2

Sorry but it is hard to take seriously someone who thinks AI and automation won't take away jobs. They will and it is a good thing.

Even assuming we end up with some society where robots do most of the labor and universal basic income becomes a thing, what do you think 90% of people will do? People need to be occupied, and the typical person isn't an inventor or artist. Furthermore, good luck making kids want to go to school when they see it as pointless since they can just get everything free from the robots while they watch TV. If you think obe…

Well, I think you give people too little credit. Nobody can stand passively watching TV the entire day every day of their lives.

But even if you aren't, why would it bother you? If other people want to waste their lives on a coach in front of the TV, what makes this wrong?

Re: Algorithms Have Already Gone Rogue

#17

Post by zellyn »

zghst wrote: post #11

"why capitalism is like a rogue AI" These people seriously need to take a step back. At some point you cross the bridge between reporting and actively advertising someone's personal views. I can't ever trust or read people who constantly try to push an agenda, it's disingenuous. Even more so, when reporting, engaging in personal exchange without the discussing data and statistics, i.e. the facts, you are just allowin…

Steven Levy is one of the best writers when it comes to profiles and the gestalt of the tech scene. His stuff is consistently well done. I think you're looking for a different _type_ of writing, perhaps?

Re: Algorithms Have Already Gone Rogue

#18

Post by zghst »

mathgenius wrote: post #13

The financial system is a giant message passing algorithm. It is pretty much just a min-sum algorithm [1] whose sole purpose is to answer the question "what should we do?". Anyone who has played around with these algorithms for solving decoding problems knows that they are fabulously powerful. But these message passing algorithms have two weaknesses: (A) When there is more than one solution (B) When there are small l…

Brilliant take. Better analysis than pseudo-intellectual O'Reilly and the Wired cultists.

Re: Algorithms Have Already Gone Rogue

#19

Post by saulrh »

zghst wrote: post #11

"why capitalism is like a rogue AI" These people seriously need to take a step back. At some point you cross the bridge between reporting and actively advertising someone's personal views. I can't ever trust or read people who constantly try to push an agenda, it's disingenuous. Even more so, when reporting, engaging in personal exchange without the discussing data and statistics, i.e. the facts, you are just allowin…

Yes? This is an interview with an author that was conducted specifically to talk about the book and the material in it. What did you expect?

Unrelated, I'd like to see your argument against that particular line. IMO the comparison is an excellent one; its only issue is that the chosen scope ("the financial market") is too small. Corporations and other bureaucratic entities like governments are powerful cross-domain optimizers with utterly alien cognitive processes and goals. Intelligence, certainly, artificial, might as well call it that.

Re: Algorithms Have Already Gone Rogue

#20

Post by zghst »

tenaciousDaniel wrote: post #10
jordigh wrote: post #3

Is this his new meme-hustling? "Algorithm"? https://thebaffler.com/salvos/the-meme-hustler I've never liked how Tim O'Reilly frames his discussion around vague terms like "open" which could mean participatory, transparent, available, or any other number of vague, feel-good terms. Now he seems to be calling "algorithm" things like economic models and government policy. These are widely disparate things, but by using v…

That's been bothering me, the word "algorithm" is slowly becoming known as this ambiguously scary thing.

Everyday people couldn't even tell you the definition of "algorithm", even then, they wouldn't recognize that algorithms are not only encoded into chips but also business process, legal compliance, etc.
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