Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

FBI Hunt for 2 Missing Pigs Reveals Federal Cover-Up of Barbaric Factory Farms

theintercept.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

11–20 of 54 posts

Re: FBI Hunt for 2 Missing Pigs Reveals Federal Cover-Up of Barbaric Factory Farms

#11

Post by oh_sigh »

cup wrote: post #3

I think its hard to morally justify consuming animal products in this day and age, under a capitalist system where animal welfare is not recognised. For people that want to eat or use animal products you should consider hunting for your own food, rearing your own chickens or just cutting back. The ecological problems and the blatant disregard for animals rights are too much and a top down approach doesn't seem possib…

Opting out simply isn't good enough, because you may just end up translating animal suffering into human suffering if you just eat vegetarian products without knowing how it is sourced.

What is more moral, eating a steak from a cow that was killed for its meat by decently paid, respected workers - or - eating a chocolate bar made with palm oil whose products were farmed using slave and child labor?

Re: FBI Hunt for 2 Missing Pigs Reveals Federal Cover-Up of Barbaric Factory Farms

#12

Post by trhway »

> The FBI agents ordered staff and volunteers to stay away from the animals and then approached the piglets. To obtain the DNA samples, the state veterinarians accompanying the FBI used a snare to pressurize the piglet’s snout, thus immobilizing her in pain and fear, and then cut off close to two inches of the piglet’s ear.

>The piglet’s pain was so severe, and her screams so piercing, that the sanctuary’s staff members screamed and cried. Even the FBI agents were so sufficiently disturbed by the resulting trauma, that they directed the veterinarians not to subject the second piglet to the procedure.

a blatant act of animal torture.

Re: FBI Hunt for 2 Missing Pigs Reveals Federal Cover-Up of Barbaric Factory Farms

#13

Post by whipoodle »

cup wrote: post #3

I think its hard to morally justify consuming animal products in this day and age, under a capitalist system where animal welfare is not recognised. For people that want to eat or use animal products you should consider hunting for your own food, rearing your own chickens or just cutting back. The ecological problems and the blatant disregard for animals rights are too much and a top down approach doesn't seem possib…

Nobody wants to hear it. They just don't.

Re: FBI Hunt for 2 Missing Pigs Reveals Federal Cover-Up of Barbaric Factory Farms

#14

Post by distances »

oh_sigh wrote: post #11
cup wrote: post #3

I think its hard to morally justify consuming animal products in this day and age, under a capitalist system where animal welfare is not recognised. For people that want to eat or use animal products you should consider hunting for your own food, rearing your own chickens or just cutting back. The ecological problems and the blatant disregard for animals rights are too much and a top down approach doesn't seem possib…

Opting out simply isn't good enough, because you may just end up translating animal suffering into human suffering if you just eat vegetarian products without knowing how it is sourced. What is more moral, eating a steak from a cow that was killed for its meat by decently paid, respected workers - or - eating a chocolate bar made with palm oil whose products were farmed using slave and child labor?

This is not a logical line of thought. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Not_as_bad_as

Re: FBI Hunt for 2 Missing Pigs Reveals Federal Cover-Up of Barbaric Factory Farms

#15

Post by edejong »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #4
cup wrote: post #3

I think its hard to morally justify consuming animal products in this day and age, under a capitalist system where animal welfare is not recognised. For people that want to eat or use animal products you should consider hunting for your own food, rearing your own chickens or just cutting back. The ecological problems and the blatant disregard for animals rights are too much and a top down approach doesn't seem possib…

The moral pitch for abstinence from meat in general, or meat one hasn’t killed themselves, is one of the most unsuccessful animal rights campaigns in history. People like meat. Those same people are moving into cities. The population is not going to hunt. Moral arguments are fun to make, but without a plan they’re just bloviation. Pushing people to prioritise humane legislation, advocating a switch from intelligent a…

Yet here in the Netherlands I see many coworkers and friends moving partly or totally away from meat due to moral concerns. Others choose to pay higher prices for livestock raised in better conditions.

Re: FBI Hunt for 2 Missing Pigs Reveals Federal Cover-Up of Barbaric Factory Farms

#16

Post by oh_sigh »

distances wrote: post #14
oh_sigh wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Opting out simply isn't good enough, because you may just end up translating animal suffering into human suffering if you just eat vegetarian products without knowing how it is sourced. What is more moral, eating a steak from a cow that was killed for its meat by decently paid, respected workers - or - eating a chocolate bar made with palm oil whose products were farmed using slave and child labor?

This is not a logical line of thought. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Not_as_bad_as

That is not at all what my line of thought was. My point was that you can't just cut meat out of your diet and think that you are behaving more moral than before. If you increase, say, your chocolate, or palm oil, tea, etc consumption, then you may be increasing human suffering compared to when you were an omnivore.

Re: FBI Hunt for 2 Missing Pigs Reveals Federal Cover-Up of Barbaric Factory Farms

#17

Post by white-flame »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #4
cup wrote: post #3

I think its hard to morally justify consuming animal products in this day and age, under a capitalist system where animal welfare is not recognised. For people that want to eat or use animal products you should consider hunting for your own food, rearing your own chickens or just cutting back. The ecological problems and the blatant disregard for animals rights are too much and a top down approach doesn't seem possib…

The moral pitch for abstinence from meat in general, or meat one hasn’t killed themselves, is one of the most unsuccessful animal rights campaigns in history. People like meat. Those same people are moving into cities. The population is not going to hunt. Moral arguments are fun to make, but without a plan they’re just bloviation. Pushing people to prioritise humane legislation, advocating a switch from intelligent a…

Another problem with such moral pitches is that at no place can a clear line be drawn between life that is okay to simply raise & kill for feed, and life that isn't. There's all sorts of attempts to morally distinguish between eating furry animals that have big glassy eyes and birth cute little babies, and other less anthropomorphically-empathetic animals such as birds, fish, or insects. That certainly may be a preference, but it's not a scrutable predicate with any shared sense of objectivity.

Any time someone draws any specific moral line based on life or intelligence, everybody else raises an eyebrow about the legitimacy of that line.

Even taking it all the way down, plants have communities, negotiate resource exchange, have fear & pain responses, and are basically just as alive as anything else. They just eat differently and move slower. And yet we eat their live young (care for some sprouts in your salad?)

Re: FBI Hunt for 2 Missing Pigs Reveals Federal Cover-Up of Barbaric Factory Farms

#18

Post by JumpCrisscross »

distances wrote: post #10
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #8

Activists were filming, under cover, a farm being heinous to pigs, saw two piglets in a dire state, and absconded with them. The FBI got involved to get the pigs back. There’s a legitimate question around why public dollars are being spent on a relatively minor crime. But that legitimacy is lost by the article blowing a reasonable law enforcement response to a theft into a “cover up”. I have a pet theory to explain w…

Is such animal mistreatment in a farm not a crime in the states in question? I find it absurd and sad that the "crime" of documentation and rescue even enters the discussion, when the FBI resources should clearly be used to investigate the far, far greater misdeed taking place at the farm itself.

> Is such animal mistreatment in a farm not a crime in the states in question?

I don’t believe it is—the article specifically says it’s illegal elsewhere but not in America. In the states where it might be illegal, the laws in question were passed as a result of reasonable debates balancing the cost of food against the wellness of animals. All-or-nothing often yields the latter.

> I find it absurd and sad that the "crime" of documentation and rescue

While falsifying intent for purposes of undercover reporting is illegal in some states, stealing is illegal everywhere. If they had to act, they should have immediately given the piglets to the (a) farm’s management or (b) police. Worst case: immediately hire a lawyer upon return to the shelter. The methods they used were dumbly deployed.

Re: FBI Hunt for 2 Missing Pigs Reveals Federal Cover-Up of Barbaric Factory Farms

#19

Post by Luc »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #4
cup wrote: post #3

I think its hard to morally justify consuming animal products in this day and age, under a capitalist system where animal welfare is not recognised. For people that want to eat or use animal products you should consider hunting for your own food, rearing your own chickens or just cutting back. The ecological problems and the blatant disregard for animals rights are too much and a top down approach doesn't seem possib…

The moral pitch for abstinence from meat in general, or meat one hasn’t killed themselves, is one of the most unsuccessful animal rights campaigns in history. People like meat. Those same people are moving into cities. The population is not going to hunt. Moral arguments are fun to make, but without a plan they’re just bloviation. Pushing people to prioritise humane legislation, advocating a switch from intelligent a…

Simply striving to reduce (not eliminate) meat consumption seems to work quite well. Smaller portions, one veggie day per week, or eating oysters and mussels (not capable of feeling pain).

And eat less chicken. A lot of them need to suffer to supply the same amount of meat as a cow for example.

Re: FBI Hunt for 2 Missing Pigs Reveals Federal Cover-Up of Barbaric Factory Farms

#20

Post by molloy »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #4
cup wrote: post #3

I think its hard to morally justify consuming animal products in this day and age, under a capitalist system where animal welfare is not recognised. For people that want to eat or use animal products you should consider hunting for your own food, rearing your own chickens or just cutting back. The ecological problems and the blatant disregard for animals rights are too much and a top down approach doesn't seem possib…

The moral pitch for abstinence from meat in general, or meat one hasn’t killed themselves, is one of the most unsuccessful animal rights campaigns in history. People like meat. Those same people are moving into cities. The population is not going to hunt. Moral arguments are fun to make, but without a plan they’re just bloviation. Pushing people to prioritise humane legislation, advocating a switch from intelligent a…

Moral arguments for veganism aren't made because they're more emotionally satisfying than arguments for animal welfarism, that comes across as pretty condescending to suggest. A lot of vegans don't support welfarist approaches. More effective in what metric/s? Do you have sources to back that claim?
Post reply on HN