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The rise of robots in the German labour market

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Re: The rise of robots in the German labour market

#11

Post by damnstraight »

wiz21c wrote: post #10
sarabande wrote: post #2

It's admirable to me that unions protect low-skilled workers from losing their job, not by preventing them from getting fired at current wages, but by accepting wage decreases for their workers while getting them re-trained into jobs of higher cognitive skill. That seems like the fair and humane thing to do for workers, while at the same time not screwing over capital owners or stifling automation.

It is not admirable at all. It basically means that you're putting a competition between machines and humans. If machines do become smarter, then humans will be moved out of the equation (except for the 0.001% who can create and maintain the machines). This kind of fight may be good on the short term, but it legitimates the fact than man are inferior to machine. For example, it may soon legitimates that, contrary to…

Maybe we should value humans beyond the labor they can fulfill.

Re: The rise of robots in the German labour market

#12

Post by avar »

wiz21c wrote: post #10
sarabande wrote: post #2

It's admirable to me that unions protect low-skilled workers from losing their job, not by preventing them from getting fired at current wages, but by accepting wage decreases for their workers while getting them re-trained into jobs of higher cognitive skill. That seems like the fair and humane thing to do for workers, while at the same time not screwing over capital owners or stifling automation.

It is not admirable at all. It basically means that you're putting a competition between machines and humans. If machines do become smarter, then humans will be moved out of the equation (except for the 0.001% who can create and maintain the machines). This kind of fight may be good on the short term, but it legitimates the fact than man are inferior to machine. For example, it may soon legitimates that, contrary to…

Men are also inferior to machines when it comes to farm work, but judging from your comment you'd presumably like to go back to the good old days when over 50% of the population worked on farms.

Re: The rise of robots in the German labour market

#13

Post by goldbricked »

ManuelKiessling wrote: post #8
agumonkey wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. For those who know Germany, it's often said that even if the economic numbers are high, there's a lot of poor workers that need two jobs to live. Is it true ? true but only a small % ? normal according to you ?

I can only report from a viewpoint inside my own filter bubble obviously, but this "two or three jobs to earn a living" is something that is still associated with the US here and practically unheard of in Germany.

Well, then i guess your bubble has a particularly large diameter. With almost 1 in 10 workers in Germany being part of the 'working poor' [1], there would otherwise be one in your social circle. [1] https://www.boeckler.de/106575_109897.htm

Re: The rise of robots in the German labour market

#14

Post by cnlevy »

maxxxxx wrote: post #6
kensai wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. Germany is one of the few places that Unions are working (mostly) as intended. When Germany was under pressure in the Schröder era, it was the Unions that helped dealing with convincing the workers to accept shorter shifts and salaries, instead of pushing companies to relocation or, worse, bankruptcy.

No idea why you got downvoted. Your comment is right on.

Maybe from a non-German union ?

Re: The rise of robots in the German labour market

#15

Post by imtringued »

wiz21c wrote: post #10
sarabande wrote: post #2

It's admirable to me that unions protect low-skilled workers from losing their job, not by preventing them from getting fired at current wages, but by accepting wage decreases for their workers while getting them re-trained into jobs of higher cognitive skill. That seems like the fair and humane thing to do for workers, while at the same time not screwing over capital owners or stifling automation.

It is not admirable at all. It basically means that you're putting a competition between machines and humans. If machines do become smarter, then humans will be moved out of the equation (except for the 0.001% who can create and maintain the machines). This kind of fight may be good on the short term, but it legitimates the fact than man are inferior to machine. For example, it may soon legitimates that, contrary to…

The primary problem with automation is temporary displacement of workers. There needs to be a mechanism to connect skill demand to people otherwise people end up in low skill jobs.

>If machines are to rule, then we have to change the way we redistribute the worth they produce.

In theory if there is enough competition the price of the good decreases through automation.

Imagine you're a business selling clothing where 50% of the cost is labor and the rest are materials. You now buy a machine that replaces the labor cost with a 10% robot cost. You make 40% profit on everything you sell. Someone else builds a factory and sells the same good for 70% of the price. Consumers now have more money available to spend on other goods that are more "labor" intensive.

Unfortunately in practice we have monopolies/oligopolies everywhere.

Re: The rise of robots in the German labour market

#16

Post by germanier »

goldbricked wrote: post #13
ManuelKiessling wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can only report from a viewpoint inside my own filter bubble obviously, but this "two or three jobs to earn a living" is something that is still associated with the US here and practically unheard of in Germany.

Well, then i guess your bubble has a particularly large diameter. With almost 1 in 10 workers in Germany being part of the 'working poor' [1], there would otherwise be one in your social circle. [1] https://www.boeckler.de/106575_109897.htm

The definition of "working poor" they use is not "having two or more jobs" but "earning less than 60% of the median".

According to IAB 2.7 million workers have a second job in Germany (which is about 1 in 12). Most of them probably because they don’t earn enough in their first.

Re: The rise of robots in the German labour market

#17

Post by richthegeek »

avar wrote: post #12
wiz21c wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not admirable at all. It basically means that you're putting a competition between machines and humans. If machines do become smarter, then humans will be moved out of the equation (except for the 0.001% who can create and maintain the machines). This kind of fight may be good on the short term, but it legitimates the fact than man are inferior to machine. For example, it may soon legitimates that, contrary to…

Men are also inferior to machines when it comes to farm work, but judging from your comment you'd presumably like to go back to the good old days when over 50% of the population worked on farms.

Or the really good old days when 97% worked in agriculture...

Re: The rise of robots in the German labour market

#18

Post by agumonkey »

lispm wrote: post #9
agumonkey wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. For those who know Germany, it's often said that even if the economic numbers are high, there's a lot of poor workers that need two jobs to live. Is it true ? true but only a small % ? normal according to you ?

There is still the East/West divide. Less jobs and lower payment in the East. Then there is a larger sector with low-paid jobs and lots of people from East Germany and Central/East Europe competing. The EU rights makes it easy for EU-citizens to look for jobs in Germany. Mostly everybody with medium- or high qualifications should have no problems finding a well-paid job. Across all ages. In the western parts of Germa…

I've recently read that the east still hasn't recovered from the pre reunification lag... crazy.

Re: The rise of robots in the German labour market

#19

Post by agumonkey »

ManuelKiessling wrote: post #8
agumonkey wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. For those who know Germany, it's often said that even if the economic numbers are high, there's a lot of poor workers that need two jobs to live. Is it true ? true but only a small % ? normal according to you ?

I can only report from a viewpoint inside my own filter bubble obviously, but this "two or three jobs to earn a living" is something that is still associated with the US here and practically unheard of in Germany.

It used to be an Americanism, but French documentaries showed the disappointments of many factory jobs; and lots of politicians there too say that the economic wonder is only so because they allowed for very harsh but unmeasured life condition.

Re: The rise of robots in the German labour market

#20

Post by Animats »

Note how small the ratio of robots to workers still is. 2 robots per thousand workers in the US, 8 per thousand in Germany. Those are still below 1% yet having an effect on wages. What happens at 10%? 20%? 50%?

Few people thought in 1980 that there would be more computers than people in their lifetime.

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